nettime: Rop Gongrijp interview: Namespace

[jesis {AT} xs4all.nl (j bosma)]

Rop Gongrijp is one of the directors of xs4all, the Amsterdam based
internetprovider that has its origins in the hackers collective Hacktic.

JB : We're here to talk about your disagreements with Paul Garrin 
concerning his project. You just told me that you were approached 
from the early start of the project to give your cooperation, but 
that you have not been involved for the rest. In what way were you 
approached?

RG : Paul Garrin would have liked it if xs4all would have supported 
his project. When it comes to this project I have to make a clear 
distinction: there is Namespace the idea and Namespace the technical
construction. 
Namespace the idea is fantastic, it is very good that people are 
asking questions about the structure of the internet. What kind of 
structure is it, where does it come from, why is it the way it is? 
It is good that people are getting aware that the technical structure 
of the net has something to do with the political agenda behind it 
and that the structure of the technique can also be a political choice. 
This is important to see and in this sense I admire the initiative. 
Paul Garrins criticism of the way the distribution of names is in 
the net now is partly a just one. 
So he built a project around this that hands out new names, new 
domains within the existing system. He claims things now as if they 
are allready possible today, like "everyone can have his or her own 
topdomain (a topdomain is for instance .org or .com ), thats no
problem whatsoever, noone owns these topdomains and everybody can hand
out these domains, so Namespace does not claim these domains as its
own  but is just one of many that can distribute them..."
Well, first of all the technique does not work this way, it is a 
crude lie, everything needs to be built still. Secondly he presents 
the idea as if it can be launched in a practical sense today. Thats 
not how it works. His system would crash completely with a double 
or triple usage. So he makes statements about this system that are 
simply not true.

JB : What is the biggest problem in this, what makes this an 
impossible project?

RG : There is an organisation called IANA. This is an international 
organisation that creates standards for the internet. They also alot 
these topdomains. You can have a lot of criticism as to how this is 
done, and I have criticism, but it still is a relatively democratic 
organisation that is chosen by all organisations connected to them 
from several countries. 
Next to them Paul Garrin claims some topdomains, .sex and some 200 
other ones. There are a few other initiatives like the one by Paul 
Garrin. For instance AlterNic and others that claim the same 
topdomains. 
The problem is that the structure as it is now is hierarchic. That
means when a domain is created one particular server has to know all 
the names within this domain. Like there is one server that knows 
all .nl names. For every domain there is such a server. Some are 
clustered in one server like american domains .com, .org, .edu. 
These are all on the InterNIC server. 

JB : So what is the exact problem, would that be that there are too 
many names that appear more then once?

RG : The problem is what gives Paul Garrin the right to claim .sex and 
not AlterNic. They both claim .sex and they both have subdomains for 
this. So who am I to turn to? Is .sex Paul Garrins topdomain or does 
it belong to the other gang? And its the same story with about 10, 15 
other domains of which I have no possibility of deciding what is whose.

JB : It sounds like a problem of double telephonenumbers..

RG : Exactly. Somebody shouts: "There are not enough phonenumbers in 
the Netherlands, so I distribute some new ones." But there are 10 
groups of people with the same idea and they have overlapping area 
codes. So where can you go  ?
Thats one problem, then there is another. Imagine an alternative 
phonecompany that hands out new phonenumbers, they all start with 
09 because it is not being used yet, just an example. As they go 
along they claim all not existing area codes, a few hundred are 
still free, so why not. Just choose a number everyone. But, not 
everybody can call these numbers. Only when your telefone exchange 
is involved in the project, these numbers can be called. Like all 
members of xs4all could reach these new domains if xs4all would 
join in the project Namespace, only in case your local telefone 
exchange joined the phonenumberproject that I gave as an example, 
these numbers would be within reach. 
But people put these numbers on their bussinesscards. So they 
give you a number that works sometimes, but can just as well not 
work. The same problem we have with these Namespace names. So if 
you put a link on your homepage to a Namespace name, this link works 
for some and for others it doesn't. 
This abuses people that do not understand the technical side of it. 
For these people it is unclear why it works sometimes, but not always. 
I think that is wrong.
The system as it is might have its bad sides, but it works and it 
is clear to people why it works. And before I demolish it I want to 
be sure I can replace it with something better. The technical side 
of Paul garrins project is about 5 years away of replacing what we 
have today. 
Besides this at this moment work is being done internationally to 
replace this system we have now for something better. Its not true 
that nobody sees the problem. What Namespace adds to all this is that 
it creates a lot of attention for the problem. So don't understand me 
wrong: that aspect of the project is good. Its just that the practical 
solution that is being offered and the positiveness with which he says 
his solution works and the fact that he says everybody that does not 
believe him is mad, that is not ok.

JB : Is that what he says?

RG : O yes. I have been called a person that didn't understand everything 
so well anymore, somebody that has lost his roots. All my disagreements 
were called without substance. Everybody that does not agree or points at
mistakes in the technical structure is a part of the "stalinist conspiracy 
the internet has become" before he or she knows whats happening. Fine with 
me, but it makes discussions harder.

JB : I did an interview with Geert Lovink before I came here, also about
Namespace, and he is of the opinion that Namespace is an political 
artproject more then anything. For him the names that people buy from
this project should mostly be seen as pieces of art. I understand from
you that this is absolutely unclear to the audience and that Paul Garrin
does not present himself this way.

RG : Maybe it is part of this artpiece that Paul Garrin presents it as 
a very serious project that could be reality tomorrow. Judging Paul 
Garrin from the emails we have exchanged and the public irc-debates 
we had about this subject I would say he sees it either as an artproject 
but does not say so, or he without doubt does see Namespace as a company. 
This last thing is what he keeps saying all the time. I don't mind this, 
but he never says it is an artproject. Which might be part of the 
artproject.
Namespace is no credible alternative for the domain name system. 
Its a nice way of getting attention for a problem that is not even 
so much the biggest issue on the Internet. It does not deserve the 
kind of attention that it gets through Paul Garrin. 
I have the feeling he sees this "stalinist conspiracy" and that it 
is all really bad and it must be broken now, by all means. I have 
trouble convincing people about the technical credibility of this,
because it does not have any.
Technically it is air.

JB : Namespace has had some starting problems, illness of programmers 
and so on..

RG : This is not a problem that you solve on your own or with a few 
friends. Internet is built by hundreds of thousands of people that 
have programmed it. You can't solve this with three people, not from
the structure Namespace has now. You solve this by working with large
groups, involving universities etc.
And this is happening allready! The solutions that are being developed 
are technically much further and more innovative then what Paul Garrin
is proposing. He proposes to convert the present system a bit to create
more freedom, while there are allready things going to create a whole
new system that has more possibilities. This new system sets us free
from the piramid of naming of the domain name system.

JB : Who organises this?

RG : IANA and more precisely the Internet Engineering Task Force, 
a subdevision of IANA that is concerned with engineering issues 
of the Internet.

JB : I heard that in some countries the name distribution is getting 
more and more commercial and names are harder to obtain for certain 
groups of people.

RG : The allotting of names has got a price tag since a few years. 
It is getting more expensive. It went very fast. In America you can 
buy a .com or a .org for I believe 100 dollars a year or once. It 
could be a bit less now. In the Netherlands it is the same. There 
is a yearly rate and one for once. 

JB : But this is different per country?

RG : The rules for this are different per topdomain.

JB : Does the state, the governement of a country decide on this?

RG : Not in America, not in the Netherlands, maybe in some other 
countries, I don't know. Mostly strange organisations do this, 
like in the old days in the Netherlands the Institute for 
Mathematics. Now there is the "Internet Domein Registratie Nederland",
that introduced fees.

JB : Suppose that in some countries it is being made difficult 
for some organisations to get a name because of bureaucracy or 
corruption, censorship maybe. Wouldn't it be easy for them to 
get a name via Namespace now, instead of waiting for the new 
developments in Name giving?

RG : No, because Namespace only works for the members of a few 
smaller providers. It simply doesn't work for 99,9 percent of the 
people of the world. Namespace also is not capable of doing it for 
more then one percent of the worldpopulation. 
It is not realistic. If you want your information out into the world, 
Namespace is the worst choice, because only this small percentage of 
the world can access it and it will never be able to work for the rest.

Next to this you can always avoid local problems or so by taking the 
alternative of applying for a .com or .org. These are originally 
american domains that are used worldwide. You can get them anywhere 
in the world. The only problem you might have then is that you have 
to buy from an american commercial company: InterNIC, a service of 
another commercial company. 
But it does work. For some countries 100 dollar a year is a lot of 
money. You can buy one name with for instance 20 people and make 
subdomains. Under xs4all.nl we can create a billion names, no problem. 
So if there is a name somewhere, names can be created under it for 
systems all over the world.

The whole idea of an insane scarcity that threatens the Internet is 
overdone in my opinion. 
There are problems on the net, the problem of Spam, there is a problem 
with commercialisation, but on the terrain of namegiving the situation 
is not that urgent and stalinist and grave as Paul Garrin presents it.

JB : Are you real opponents when it comes to this? How big is the enmity?

RG : I can appreciate his project and have told him this many times, as statement. But as soon as he presents it as a credible alternative and 
people buy it out of lack of technical knowledge, I have a problem with it. 
It is not fair. I can understand it all from this artproject idea. As an 
artist it is in your interest that people believe you. But as soon as 
people start to use this name it will not work. As soon as people think 
they are accessible for the world with such a name, it is not true. 
I find that a real pity. Then he overshoots his mark. 

Next to this he has told me a lot about Namespace the company. If this 
is an artproject, or a kind of joke, then he is amazingly serious about it. 
He told me some time ago this story: " The plan is to ask some big 
american provider to give access to their Namespace name. If the provider
refuses this, then say: listen, as Namespace we offer a service, which 
is names and InterNIC does the same thing, providing names. Obviously 
InterNIC has a cartelpact with all providers, because our names are not 
accepted and those of InterNIC are. That is cartel and illegal. With 
this a judge will be approached." 
In the States you will always find some local judge that gives a
temporary injunction, saying this is not allowed anymore. " Netcom,
offer the Namespace names too, at once." 

The moment this happens there will be an enormous juridicial confusion 
and the whole world will stumble over this project, so much that he 
could make a lot of money out of it. You see, a lot of new topdomains 
will be allotted soon to break InterNICs monopoly. IANA does this. 
They did see there is a problem with InterNICs monopoly and they will 
create new names. You can see Namespace, and maybe this is another 
conspiracy theory, as a very smart plan of Paul Garrin to get some of 
these new names for himself. "Give me one of those new topdomains and 
I will keep quiet for the rest".
>From all the things he has said to me in public and in irc debates one 
can derive this as a possibility. This could be a very smart plan of 
Paul Garrin to make some money.
Whether he solves a worldproblem or is of help to the people that buy 
a name with him now, I wonder.





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