| Luca Barbeni on Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:59:09 +0100 (CET) |
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| Re: <nettime> CfP: Critical reflections on pandemic, politics:, left-wing, feminist and anti-racist critiques |
Thanks Carlo for the comprehensive answer, I agree that "We need to seek collective freedoms and collective rationality", quite difficult today, I'm just surprised how secure are pro vax about their positions while it's always important to doubt, particularly in science, while today there's no space for doubt.I think another problem of this pandemic was that there was "too much science"
and "way too much info/disinfo" on both sides.By "too much science" I mean that the idea to control or to suppress this kind of virus is a lost battle since the beginning, I'd rather have focused on cures than vaccine, (see Nimesulide), protecting the fragile and strengthening the health department. With all the effort we did the pandemic will go away after 2 years as every previous pandemic, with or without vaccines.
About the consensus, I theoretically agree, but today consensus is also driven by market forces that doesn't care about health, see the farcical show of experts on Italian tv,
everyone grabbing his 15 minutes of fame... best, Luca On 05/02/2022 02:17, nettime-l-request@mail.kein.org wrote:
Send nettime-l mailing list submissions to nettime-l@mail.kein.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nettime-l-request@mail.kein.org You can reach the person managing the list at nettime-l-owner@mail.kein.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of nettime-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: CfP: Critical reflections on pandemic politics:, left-wing, feminist and anti-racist critiques (Luca Barbeni) 2. Re: science wars replace culture wars as new divider in contemp politics (Alex Foti) 3. Re: science wars replace culture wars as new divider in contemp politics (carlo von lynX) 4. Re: CfP: Critical reflections on pandemic politics:, left-wing, feminist and anti-racist critiques (carlo von lynX) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 13:25:55 +0100 From: Luca Barbeni <luca@island8081.com> To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org Subject: Re: <nettime> CfP: Critical reflections on pandemic politics:, left-wing, feminist and anti-racist critiques Message-ID: <8191b538-9e64-fa3a-8b16-fc0d6ac443f6@island8081.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Hi to everyone, I don't write frequently on the list but I'm pretty tired of the association of provax with science vs novax against science. I'm definitively against the vaccine mandate and strongly against the pass. In Italy I know people with the pass that were positive but because they had the pass they took an airplane... and you tell me the pass is a solution? I don't believe these measures because I trust science, and pharmaceutical science until before the pandemic was based on cautionary principle that has been thrown in the bin. If the vaccine is working so well why do we still have 400 dead by day in Italy? I agree the vaccine for elderly but a mandate for everyone doesn't make any sense when the average age of death is 82. and BTW people are dying because badly cured, in Italy we're still relying on a protocol based on "paracetamol and watchful waiting" that's only killing people and that's what science says. On 22/01/2022 12:00, nettime-l-request@mail.kein.org wrote:"Moral shaming" is an appropriate measure considering that vaccine deniers are causing problems we otherwise wouldn't be having - and they are causing deaths.That's really not the case, we still have "problems" because Omicron doesn't care at all about the vaccine and by the way all my family isn't vaccinated, more than 20 people, everyone got it in January and it was less severe that a flu, also my parents who are over 70 and not vaccinated. Young people is dying less not for the vaccine but because the virus is milder... and btw you'll never know if vaccinated people got it milder because of the vaccine or not becasue there's no control group... In my humble experience I only know people who got Covid without any problem while I know people who got severe problems from the vaccine, but perhaps I'm unfortunate... BTW I'm vaccinated because unless I couldn't work. so please stop to make an equation between vaccine and science that doesn't make any sense. Do you want to have a vaccine, please do it but don't blame the no vax rather the state that should build new hospital, more beds, raise the paycheck to nurses rather giving billions to pharmaceutical companies This war between vax and novax has been created in order to divide us, the longtime classic "divide et impera"... luca ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 16:08:20 +0100 From: Alex Foti <alex.foti@gmail.com> To: Jos? Mar?a Mateos <chema@rinzewind.org> Cc: nettime-l@mail.kein.org Subject: Re: <nettime> science wars replace culture wars as new divider in contemp politics Message-ID: <CAA0Kfmm_Neb23+4eCL82jQKJit7YDgMO4Nzt-6Yc7Cs63940UA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" thanks for your critical remarks. true the fascist cancer hasn't spared neither spain nor portugal, but it seems to me that they are not attracting large numbers of people from other sectors of society as it happens in the rest of continental europe (and canada!) with no vax movements. best ciaos, alex On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 3:24 PM Jos? Mar?a Mateos <chema@rinzewind.org> wrote:On Thu, Feb 03, 2022 at 10:22:37AM +0000, Andre Rangel wrote:Hi Alex, Thank you for your text. Just a minor correction. Unfortunately. In Portugal, the extreme right ?Chega? was the third mostvoted in the last election (7.15% of the votes). In Spain Vox is the political umbrela for Francoism/Nazi/Nationalist movements. Vox is connected with Chega. Unfortunately. I was going to reply to this too. Yes, in Spain Vox is also quite representative of the anti-vax movement. Santiago Abascal, its leader, has refused to say whether he's vaccinated or not: https://cadenaser-com.translate.goog/ser/2021/09/18/sociedad/1631954620_782993.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp This is party that is managing to attract everything that's fringe on the right and extreme right. One of its representatives in parliament tweeted "Trust the plan" on Jan 7th 2021: https://twitter.com/Macarena_Olona/status/1347341468218888192?s=20 Cheers, -- Jos? Mar?a (Chema) Mateos || https://rinzewind.org # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://mx.kein.org/pipermail/nettime-l/attachments/20220204/02852d40/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 19:17:46 +0100 From: carlo von lynX <lynX@time.to.get.psyced.org> To: nettime-l@kein.org Subject: Re: <nettime> science wars replace culture wars as new divider in contemp politics Message-ID: <20220204181746.GA28317@lo.psyced.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Feb 03, 2022 at 09:22:45AM +0100, Alex Foti wrote:let's win the science wars to prevail in the climate and class struggles,Yes, please. Thank you for emphasising the issue of science in all of this. TL;DR: How big is the impact of culturally accepted anti-science and will this new awareness also help focus on that? A crazy optimistic thought of mine: what if a new attention towards fact-orientedness and science in the reasonable majorities of society suddenly helps unveil other areas of political thought, where anti-science has been commonly accepted for decades? What if these developments bring about a new honest look at otherwise ideology-driven political movements like the "economic sciences", "conservative" political parties who praise free markets while ignoring that the markets haven't been free for quite a while now? Each time I hear "conservative" or "liberal" leaders like FDP's Lindner spew out populist el-cheapo phrases like "no raise in taxes" when taxes, applied to the right people, are absolutely essential in achieving sustainable existence of the human species, it makes me worry about the intelli- gence of voters. And then they interview some student who says he voted for FDP because saving the planet is impor- tant but to him it matters more that no speed limit is introduced on highways. The science vs ideology vs radicalisation wars, are they about Internet desinformation? Or are they about stupidity? Or about lack of empathy and care? Who cares about future generations if even many of today's kids don't? Anyway, I wish us luck. What were the culture wars actually? Fighting over ideologies while more or less accepting facts to be facts and science to be science? Well, then maybe it is good that the disrespect of science in large chunks of the political spectrum becomes more visible - not just those parts of anti-science that are not acceptable culturally. P.S. Another example of culturally widely accepted anti- science: The microwave oven scare. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2022 02:17:11 +0100 From: carlo von lynX <lynX@time.to.get.psyced.org> To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org Subject: Re: <nettime> CfP: Critical reflections on pandemic politics:, left-wing, feminist and anti-racist critiques Message-ID: <20220205011711.GA22242@lo.psyced.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 No-one has replied to this one, so I'll carefully try to do so. After all it happens to be a reply to a post of mine. On Fri, Feb 04, 2022 at 01:25:55PM +0100, Luca Barbeni wrote:Hi to everyone, I don't write frequently on the list but I'm pretty tired of the association of provax with science vs novax against science. I'm definitively against the vaccine mandate and strongly against the pass. In Italy I know people with the pass that were positive but because they had the pass they took an airplane... and you tell me the pass is a solution?In fact Italian airports are among the ones doing a not so bad job. At least they still check for body temperature which I haven't seen happening in many other places. Recently in various airports I have been asked to prompt my vaccination QR code or the printed lines below it, but never has anyone actually checked whether the QR code actually comes with any valid digital signature, making the whole "green pass" infrastructure apparently pointless. As I asked the employee why she would not use the "CoronaCheck Scanner" app (which is even available from F-Droid, like all governmental apps should) to ensure my colour-printed sheet of paper is actually legit (and not signed by a rogue pharmacy for example, or entirely made up), she just said the airways aren't getting paid to do governmental jobs. So what's the deal with governments not being very precise and serious about checking the rules they make? Well, I presume it has to do with epidemiology: It is not important to intercept *every* single case and to be super strict with everyone as long as the large majority of population respects the rules and thus slows down the spread of the epidemics. And apparently that strategy has worked out. We are about to get out of the covid tunnel.I don't believe these measures because I trust science, and pharmaceutical science until before the pandemic was based on cautionary principle that has been thrown in the bin.Strangely however, your conclusion doesn't sound very scientific, it sounds like you trust your own understanding of science better than what the scientific consensus would say - but the point in being science-based is to not follow a single person's opinion or even scientific evaluation, but rather to seek the consensus.If the vaccine is working so well why do we still have 400 dead by day in Italy?If people weren't vaccinated, then either Italy would still be in a real lockdown, or the numbers of people dying would be some hundredfold higher - simply because the hospitals wouldn't keep up. The vaccine, the masks, the distancing have tamed the exponential growth of the malady. The illness still kills people, but a lot less than it could have killed, had we been less rational.I agree the vaccine for elderly but a mandate for everyone doesn't make any sense when the average age of death is 82.That average is so high *because* the hospitals are keeping up. We have seen in many countries with unreasonable political leadership how hospitals got overrun with the consequence of getting a spike in young deaths which could have been avoided if they hadn't all gotten infected *at the same time* and in such high numbers. By vaccinating all of the population, young people do not crowd the hospitals, allowing hospitals to do their best for the elderly which are still at risk of dying.and BTW people are dying because badly cured, in Italy we're still relying on a protocol based on "paracetamol and watchful waiting" that's only killing people and that's what science says.I don't know where you have your science from, but the scientific consensus that I have been following speaks differently.That's really not the case, we still have "problems" because Omicron doesn't care at all about the vaccineThat is incorrect.and by the way all my family isn't vaccinated, more than 20 people, everyone got it in January and it was less severe that a flu, also my parents who are over 70 and not vaccinated.Glad you like Russian roulette, but your behaviour has nothing to do with science.Young people is dying less not for the vaccine but because the virus is milder...But that is still a guess, not a scientific certainty. So your entire family has been at risk for over a year of getting the nastier variants of the virus? You call that reasonable? Also, since it is scientifically clear that there is nothing wrong with the vaccine, what was the point in taking a risk? Maybe you aren't actually behaving in a scientifically solid way by supporting some irrational doubts about the vaccines?and btw you'll never know if vaccinated people got it milder because of the vaccine or not becasue there's no control group...Then why are the hospitals mostly crowded by non-vaccinated persons, some of them pretty young? Where do you get your facts and science from?In my humble experience I only know people who got Covid without any problem while I know people who got severe problems from the vaccine, but perhaps I'm unfortunate...Yes, indeed, because you are confusing science with anecdotical observations. There are young unvaccinated people occupying hospital beds needlessly, and there are people who experience side effects of the vaccine because they are afraid of it - not because any of those effects are caused by the vaccine itself. Here's the Harvard study in that regard: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/jan/18/nocebo-effect-two-thirds-of-covid-jab-reactions-not-caused-by-vaccine-study-suggests https://hms.harvard.edu/news/power-placebo 2/3 of vaccination side effects only exist in the mind! Considering that many people experience real pains in their arms after getting a jab, it is surreal that patients have been reporting more paranoid pains than real ones. This is illustrating once more how humans are unable to think rationally on these matters. If you are an informed science-oriented person, did your information channels let you know about this new scientific fact? Maybe they didn't because they are moderated with the habit of censoring any science that doesn't fit the agenda of the moderator? Try posting these links in your favourite covid chatroom and see if they get removed...BTW I'm vaccinated because unless I couldn't work.Some governmental measures are designed to save lives.so please stop to make an equation between vaccine and science that doesn't make any sense. Do you want to have a vaccine, please do it but don't blame the no vax rather the state that should build new hospital, more beds, raise the paycheck to nurses rather giving billions to pharmaceutical companiesYou're not being scientific. Vaccination is the only realistic and scientific way to address this virus - medicines are only about to enter the market *now* and there is no number of hospitals that would be able to manage an exponentially growing epidemic going through the roof. Always in favour of raising nurses' paychecks and de-privatising hospitals, but it would not address the covid emergency.This war between vax and novax has been created in order to divide us, the longtime classic "divide et impera"...No. Politicians had hoped that everybody would be rational and acting reasonable. Instead a number of people has chosen to get manipulated by anti-scientific political forces on the Internet, suggesting there could be something wrong about the only possible remedy against the virus. Bad luck for the politicians acting in such a liberal way. In the meantime science has found out that a strong mandate would have worked better, psychologically: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/11/11/vaccine-hesitancy-psychology-regret/ "Anticipated regret sheds light on why vaccine-hesitant people seem more comfortable taking their chances with the virus rather than getting the shot, a decision that is not rational given the relative likelihood of experiencing severe effects of covid-19 vs. severe vaccine side effects. [?] When people don?t feel the weight of making their own choice, they aren?t as tormented by the anticipated negative outcomes of their decision. Mandates externalize responsibility for getting vaccinated ? shifting it from the self to others ? making it easier to go forward with getting a shot." I know this scientific evidence is a hard hit to anyone who believes in individual freedom ideologies. The problem in those ideologies is that Cartesian individual rationality has been proven wrong long time ago, which to me makes it likely that individual freedoms are also psychosocially wrong. It is wrong to ask an individual whether they agree on giving away their data to a behemoth (GDPR) just as it is wrong to expect an individual to grasp the long-term consequences and therefore stop smoking, eating sugars etc. It's even wronger to ask individuals to change their habits to save the planet, because by doing so you are denying the science we have about human psychology! I wished we could go that way, but science has slapped these ideologic approaches in our face. We need to seek collective freedoms and collective rationality. The latter is what should distinguish us from the Chinese approach. P.S. I try to base everything I say on scientific consensus and evidence. If you plan to reply to this mail, please do not just throw science-rejecting opinions at me, but rather provide solid evidence and facts that prove me wrong. Thank you. ------------------------------ # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l End of nettime-l Digest, Vol 173, Issue 6 *****************************************
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