<nettime> wrong signals [Dickson, Garcia, Hagenlocher]

["nettime's_opinion_digga" <nettime-l@bbs.thing.net>]

   Re: <nettime> wrong signals                                                     
     Ian Dickson <ian@iand.demon.co.uk>                                              

   Re: <nettime> wrong signals                                                     
     "David Garcia" <davidg@xs4all.nl>                                               

   RE: <nettime> wrong signals                                                     
     Curt Hagenlocher <curth@motek.com>                                              


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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:57:50 +0000
From: Ian Dickson <ian@iand.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: <nettime> wrong signals

In message <200312151231.hBFCVnr23483@bbs.thing.net>, David Garcia 
<davidg@xs4all.nl> writes
>
>If symbols really do matter we might conclude that American
>administration's PR machine has got it badly wrong. In the carefully
>orchestrated news management of Saddam's capture, once again, the public
>opinion which *really* matters in the middle east: Arab public opinion,
>has been conclusively misread
>
>The image of an Arab leader (however terrible) being objectivised by a
>white gloved American medic like a bug on a lab bench, will not be read in
>the Arab world as a moment of liberation.
Really?

The pictures I saw (on the BBC) of cheering crowds in Iraq seemed to 
indicate that lots of people in Iraq, those who know SH best, are quite 
pleased with the turn of events.

They certainly seem convinced that it is SH, and not a stand in. (Though 
I'm sure it is just a matter of time before it is suggested that the 
entire think was done with Hollywood FX, and SH still lives free).

As to "Arab Public Opinion", that would the public opinion of those 
inhabitants of the bastions of democracy and pluralism that comprise the 
Arab world?

I wonder how strongly their public opinion matches their private ones? 
After all the apparent public opinion in Iraq prior to the war was one 
of a fight to the death, lead by the great SH himself.

My wife remembers her childhood in the USSR in which there were regular 
spontaneous demonstrations, which it was a transgression NOT to attend. 
Attendance and apparent enthusiasm did not represent real views, and 
within a few months of it becoming possible to show true feelings, 
Lithuania regained its independence.

Of course that is not so say that the US is not making some big errors 
(Guantanemo Bay (sp?) is an abomination, not pushing Israel into a 
sensible two contiguous state settlement just keeps the wound festering, 
bombing children instead of risking soldiers etc).

Cheers
- -- 
ian dickson                                  www.commkit.com
phone +44 (0) 1452 862637                    fax +44 (0) 1452 862670
PO Box 240, Gloucester, GL3 4YE, England

           "for building communities that work"


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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:05:11 +0100
From: "David Garcia" <davidg@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: <nettime> wrong signals



Ian Dickson wrote

> The pictures I saw (on the BBC) of cheering crowds in Iraq seemed to
> indicate that lots of people in Iraq, those who know SH best, are quite
> pleased with the turn of events.

Yes there is understandable celebration at the capture of the former tyrant.
But we do not know the full extent or these celebrations nor should we take
them as an indication that the population of Iraq truly welcomes the
American lead Crusade. The main indications of recent months indicate quite
the contrary. It is never simply a question of WHAT a campaign actually
achieves but WHO is waging it. This really does matter. This is especially
important if the campaign is seen as part of a wider project called The war
on Terror. We have to ask ourselves whether the kind of public humiliation
of an Arab leader by a white gloved American medic (as though fearing some
cultural infection) is going to contribute one single additional atom of
security to the citizens of western nations. The point of my previous
posting was simply to indicate that the eager transmission of these images,
though no doubt a high voltage contribution to Bush's re-election campaign,
is nevertheless an optimal means of sustaining the sense of embittered
humiliation required to fuel the terror machine.

> Of course that is not so say that the US is not making some big errors
> (Guantanemo Bay (sp?) is an abomination, not pushing Israel into a
> sensible two contiguous state settlement just keeps the wound festering,
> bombing children instead of risking soldiers etc).
>

Yes interesting that Rumsfeld  was at such pains to point out that Saddam
would be afforded the status of a prisoner of war under the Geneva
Conventions. Why was he not shipped off to camp xray as "an illegal
combatant"? Why the privileges?

David Garcia


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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 08:24:19 -0800
From: Curt Hagenlocher <curth@motek.com>
Subject: RE: <nettime> wrong signals

> If symbols really do matter we might conclude that American 
> administration's PR machine has got it badly wrong. In the 
> carefully orchestrated news management of Saddam's capture, 
> once again, the public opinion which *really* matters in the 
> middle east: Arab public opinion, has been conclusively misread

Last I checked, those people won't be voting in 2004.  So who cares what
they think?

- --
Curt Hagenlocher
curth@motek.com


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