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<nettime> fascin' USA digest [porculus, nemedia, desrenards, hettinga]
nettime's_skeptical_inquirer on Sat, 31 May 2003 18:17:08 +0200 (CEST)

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<nettime> fascin' USA digest [porculus, nemedia, desrenards, hettinga]

Re: <nettime> Fascism in the USA?
     "porculus" <porculus {AT} wanadoo.fr>
     Newmedia {AT} aol.com
     Louise Desrenards <louise.desrenards {AT} free.fr>
     "R. A. Hettinga" <rah {AT} shipwright.com>

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From: "porculus" <porculus {AT} wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Fascism in the USA?
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 15:46:19 +0200

> My opinion is that if Bush is reelected, the US will have

> become, without any more doubt, a predominantly fascist society

have you ever heard of hitler, mussolini, or ztaline, reelection?

i would say americanz in general dont give a damned fuck zaddam had or not
mass destruction woepony & wolfowitz understand clearly that & it was just
some autosuggestion for zen preparation as in some vandam moviez.. It's an
old thing, 'democratie' choose specialy well its cretinz when needed, in
frankreich we do as well, beside notice bush az cretinz has said he nearly
understand the reasons of the ours. allo allo houston, you know what, we
have no problem

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From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 08:33:48 EDT
Subject: Re: <nettime> Fascism in the USA?


> My opinion is that if Bush is reelected, the US 
> will have become, without any more doubt, a 
> predominantly fascist society.

Don't you mean METHODIST??

Fascism is an early 20th century term which makes no sense without its 
ideological twin/counterpart -- Bolshevism.

Are you sure that BOTH "fascism" and "bolshevism" didn't DISAPPEAR as 
effective hsitoric forces a long time ago??

Fascism is the name for a particular political-economic system/movement and 
certainly does *not* mean "repression" or even "authoritarian" in some 
generallized sense.  You should read Bert Gross' "Friendly Fascism" for a 
thorough account of how "fascism" is perfectly consistent with Frankfurt 
School "anti-authoritarianism."

As things currently stand, Bush WILL be re-elected in 2004 -- which will only 
prove that the DEMOCRATS are largely bankrupt/dis-credited/out-of-favor as an 
opposition party.  The principle reason for this failure on the part of the 
Democrats is that they are still nostalgic for the 1930's and the New Deal era, 
whereas the Republicans have "re-invented" themselves as a post-Cold-War 
(i.e. 21st century) political party.

You seem to be committing the same mistake -- nostalgia for a time (and a 
preferred "enemy") that is LONG gone.  If you persist in this THROWBACK mentally 
(i.e. your own "conservatism"), then you will also LOSE in all your campaigns 
. . . inevitably.

FASCISM *and* BOLSHEVISM are EUROPEAN ideologies and to imagine that either 
of them have *ever* been popular or politically effective in the USA is 
foolish, ignorant and worst of all -- A-HISTORIC!!

George W. Bush is a "born-again" Methodist (thanks to his wife Laura) -- not, 
by any stretch of the term, a "fascist" -- and, if you wish to understand the 
present role of the USA in world history, you will have to investigate and 
understand what his "beliefs" actually mean.


Mark Stahlman
New York City

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Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 15:02:05 +0200
Subject: FW: <nettime> Fascism in the USA?
From: Louise Desrenards <louise.desrenards {AT} free.fr>

Any message like Brian Holmes' one sounds radically critical front of other
one since any months... Thanks Brian. But I'm afraid that your calling to
answer could stay without effect online.
For instance: Who could deny on any freedom cultural ‹ but materialistic ‹
realities actually lost in USA? How many transatlantic friends are
preventively light in their personal mails today front of new structure of
the repression growing up every day?

>From St Petersburg to Evian G8 President Bush was spoken yesterday on his
friendship with French government at last, saying something like:
    "No punishment but only deception. In every case French are friends and
we stay to have any point of view to work together, on Africa for example...
France have an interest on Africa, doesn't? So we have too. Why we could not
work together on the question of AID in Africa? Could be a good way...?"

Laughing (remember just on the ONU decision against the war)!

1. Who could not remember of the American interdiction exigency in World
organizations, on inaccessibility of certain medical substances to African
people? That one of the good therapy in AID exactly...

Anything can change of course.

2. Obviously we are sure that AID could be the true cause from American
State and lobbies to Africa: a new frontier to conquest about a lot of

(again) New Frontier...

3. Fortunately, to get on working or trading the people you need them in a
better health (alive at least ;-)

Have a good day and thanX to the Great Texans and French Hawks who could
read a Frenglish mail ;-)

Happy Revolution on Thought and Practices.

Louise D.


And now, any Information online:




    Nouvelles des manifestation au jour le jour
    Every day reports on mobilizations
    Noticias de las movilizaciones al momento
    Aggiornamenti giorno per giorno sulle mobilizazzione}}


[en] No Border demo in Geneva
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=85

[fr] Evian : premier compte-rendu d'IMC-Lille
 >> http://lille.indymedia.org/article.php3?id_article=1817

[fr] Anti- G8  Street party sur Annemasse
 >> http://paris.indymedia.org/article.php3?id_article=3390

[fr] Les transports gratuits à Genève
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/ecrire/articles.php3?id_article=84

[fr] Récit subjectif de la manif genevoise
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/ecrire/articles.php3?id_article=83

[fr] Libération de l'université de Genève
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/ecrire/articles.php3?id_article=82

[fr] Une autre journée entre Genève et Annemasse
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/ecrire/articles.php3?id_article=81

[fr] Quelques photos prises sur le parcours de la manif
 >> http://ch.indymedia.org/fr/2003/05/9783.shtml

[it] Critical Mass a Ginevra contro il G8 (foto)
 >> http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/297518.php

[en] Report from the Intergalactic villa in Evian
 >> http://uk.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=70045&group=webcast

[it] Report dal Villaggio Intergalactika di Evian
 >> http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/297482.php

[fr] Entre solidarité et détermination (photos)
 >> http://www.attac.info/g8evian/?NAVI=1023-113506-14fr

[fr] Manifestation pour la liberté de circuler (photos)
 >> http://www.attac.info/g8evian/?NAVI=1023-113429-14fr

[it] Foto della manifestazione di oggi a Ginevra
 >> http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/297317.php

[fr] La Haine - Minuto a minuto manifestación "No Borders"
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=79

[fr] Des lieux communs revendiqués
 >> http://www.medialter.org/article.php3?id_article=63

[fr] Fin de manif, retour sur Annemasse
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=78

[en] Genevra: No-border Demonstration
 >> http://www.indymedia.ch/fr/2003/05/9743.shtml

[ca] Informe desde la Villa Intergalactika en Evian
 >> http://argentina.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/113736.php

[fr] Libération du camion de Globalize resistance
 >> http://hns.samizdat.net/article.php3?id_article=3086

[fr] Genève très cool
 >> http://paris.indymedia.org/article.php3?id_article=3373

[en] Personal observations and news from the VAAAG village
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=76

[fr] Fin de manif à Genève
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=75

[it] Manifestanti alla sede del Wto
 >> http://www.italy.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/296977.php

[it] Manifestazione a Ginevra- aggiornamenti

 >> http://www.indymedia.ch/it/2003/05/9732.shtml

[fr] Genève :  « No Border - No OMC »
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=74

[fr] Genève : des éclats de verre dans le choco
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=73

[it] Manifestanti entrano nella sede del WTO
 >> http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/296977.php

[ca] Manifestación "No Borders", por la libre circulación
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=72

[fr] Genève, devant le siège de l'OMC
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=71

[fr] Départ de la manif No Border de Genève
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=70

[fr] Train gratuit pour Genève
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=68

[fr] Action à l'Université de Genève
 >> http://www.indymedia.ch/fr/2003/05/9733.shtml

[fr] Depuis Barcelone sans contrôle
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=69

[ca] Viernes 30 de mayo. Ginebra contra la IOM, WIPO y OMC
 >> http://www.lahaine.org/global/viernes_omc.htm

[en] No Border demo today in Geneva
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=63


[ca] Tres autocares que salieron de Barcelona
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=62

[fr] Trois autocars de Barcelonne
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=61

[fr] Un jeudi au VAAAG
 >> http://nantes.indymedia.org/article.php3?id_article=266

[en] G8 29th. Lausanne. The demo in pictures (photos)
 >> http://www.indymedia.ch/fr/2003/05/9694.shtml

[en] Nice summary of the events in Lausanne and Geneva
 >> http://uk.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=69923&group=webcast

[ca] Crónica de la mani del bloque rosa (fotos)
 >> http://barcelona.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=44065&group=webcast

[ca] Manifestación festiva en Laussane. El G8 fuera de Lausanne

[fr] Lausanne entre blocs et samba
 >> http://paris.indymedia.org/article.php3?id_article=3347

[it] Manifestazione Losanna (fotos)
 >> http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/296693.php

[it] Video-pillole della manifestazione Losanna
 >> http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/296693.php

[fr] Quoi de neuf à Genève et à Lausanne, Docteur ?
 >> http://www.anti-g8.org/article.php3?id_article=127

[fr] Police et media-fiction (photos)
 >> http://switzerland.indymedia.org/fr/2003/05/9674.shtml

[fr] Lausanne: photos de la manifestation contre le G8
 >> http://ch.indymedia.org/fr/2003/05/9658.shtml

[fr] Depuis la manif à Annemasse (Photos)
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=60

[en] Annemasse, demonstration for Carlo Giuliani
 >> http://uk.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=69907&group=webcast

[en] Anti-G8 demo in Lausanne
 >> http://uk.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=69900&group=webcast

[fr] G8 : Genève, quelques affrontements, Lausanne, quelques feux follets
 >> http://paris.indymedia.org/article.php3?id_article=3339

[fr] « Ils sont venus contre la guerre, ce n'est pas pour la faire ici »
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=58

[fr] Flic-Flac-Floc : fin de manif en musique
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=57

[ca] Hace algunos minutos ha llegado la manifestación principal a la
Plaza Riponne
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=56

[fr] Annemasse, manif festive pour Carlo Giuliani
 >> http://paris.indymedia.org/article.php3?id_article=3331

[fr] Annemasse : suite manifestation
 >> http://hns.samizdat.net/article.php3?id_article=3079

[fr] Lausanne échauffourée
 >> http://hns.samizdat.net/article.php3?id_article=3078

[ca] Manifestación festiva en Lausanne
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=55

[ca] Segundo Reporte de Laussane
 >> http://argentina.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/113468.php

[fr] Lausanne. G8 touché, coulé
 >> http://hns.samizdat.net/article.php3?id_article=3077

[fr] Anemasse : Manifestation en ville
 >> http://hns.samizdat.net/article.php3?id_article=3076

[fr] Départ du Pink & Silvers bloc à Lausanne
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/article.php3?id_article=54

[en] Intergalactic g8 protest camp grows
 >> http://uk.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=69845&group=webcast

[fr] 200 à la caravane contre le G8
 >> http://switzerland.indymedia.org/fr/2003/05/9599.shtml

[fr] Anemasse : Ambiance dans les camps
 >> http://hns.samizdat.net/article.php3?id_article=3071

     [fr] Les amendes pleuvent à Annemasse
 >> http://hns.samizdat.net/article.php3?id_article=3069

[en] Geneva Paranoïa (photos)
 >> http://www.cunningham.li/Photos/War/Prepare/index.html

[it] Aggiornamenti dalla stazione di losanna
 >> http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/296180.php

[it] Notizie da Ginevra #1
 >> http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/296241.php

[it] Carovana bicig8 partita da Berna
 >> http://ch.indymedia.org/itmix/2003/05/9601.shtml



[de] 29/05 - First demo in Anemasse (KanalB)
 >> http://kanalB.de/spezial-evian2003/20030530-anemass-29-5.ram] (Copie
 >> http://www.mediactivism.org/pub/video/kanalB/anemass-29-5.rm

[de] 29/05 - Geneve in the morning (KanalB)
 >> http://kanalB.de/spezial-evian2003/20030529-vormittags.ram
Copie locale

[it] 29/05 - Manifestazione Losanna (IMC-Usine)
 >> http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/296693.php
Copie locale

[it] 28/05 - Ginevra: barricata l'università (IMC-Usine)
 >> http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/296220.php
Copie locale


[it] 30/05 - Onda Rossa - Un mediattivista racconta (mp3)
 >> http://italy.indymedia.org/uploads/030530chang.mp3

[it] 30/05 - Radio Gap - Angelo Mastrandrea del {Manifesto}  (mp3)
 >> http://italy.indymedia.org/uploads/2003_05_30_3604.mp3

[it] Globalradio -  Oggi per le vie della città una critical mass
 >> http://www.globalradio.it/news.php?lng=it&pg=1492

[fr] 26/05 - Carrefour du Monde - Spécial G8


[FR] - mediactivism.org propose un point d'accès collectif entre des
médias alternatifs, qui permettrait de donner de la visibilité aux
diverses productions en général dispersées en divers points du réseau.
Quelque chose qui soit bien plus qu'un simple « portail », mais bien un
canal commun de diffusion multilingue et multimédia de l'information via
un système de publication mutualisé.

[EN] - mediactivism.org is a proposal for a collective online access
point between alternative media, which would make it possible to give
visibility to the various productions generally dispersed in various
points of the network. Something which is much more than one simple
"gate", but a common channel of multilingual and multi-media diffusion
of information via a mutualized posting system.
De : Brian Holmes <brian.holmes {AT} wanadoo.fr>
Répondre à : Brian Holmes <brian.holmes {AT} wanadoo.fr>
Date : Sat, 31 May 2003 00:49:03 +0200
À : nettime <nettime-l {AT} bbs.thing.net>
Objet : <nettime> Fascism in the USA?


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Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 08:43:43 -0400
From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah {AT} shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Fascism in the USA?

At 12:49 AM +0200 5/31/03, Brian Holmes wrote:
>Wolfowitz's even more shocking declaration, in a recent Vanity Fair
>interview (quoted today in Le Monde)

Right. See below.



Wolfowitz Really Said 
>From the June 9, 2003 issue: The truth behind the Vanity Fair "scoop." 
by William Kristol 
06/09/2003, Volume 008, Issue 38

AS THIS MAGAZINE goes to press, a controversy swirls about the head of
Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz. He is alleged to have "revealed,"
in an interview with writer Sam Tanenhaus for the Manhattan
celebrity/fashion glossy Vanity Fair, that the Bush administration's
asserted casus belli for war against Saddam Hussein--the dictator's
weapons-of-mass-destruction program--was little more than a propaganda
device, a piece of self-conscious and insincere political manipulation.

Lazy reporters have been following the lead of the press release Vanity
Fair publicists circulated about their "scoop." It begins as follows:

Contradicting the Bush administration, Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul
Wolfowitz tells Vanity Fair that weapons of mass destruction had never been
the most compelling justification for invading Iraq. 

As it happens, this is a not-quite-accurate description of a paragraph in 
Tanenhaus's article, which itself bears reprinting for reasons that will 
become obvious in a moment: 

When we spoke in May, as U.S. inspectors were failing to find
weapons of mass destruction, Wolfowitz admitted that from the outset,
contrary to so many claims from the White House, Iraq's supposed cache of
WMD had never been the most important casus belli. It was simply one of
several reasons: "For bureaucratic reasons we settled on one issue, weapons
of mass destruction, because it was the one reason everyone could agree
on." Everyone meaning, presumably, Powell and the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
"Almost unnoticed but huge," he said, is another reason: removing Saddam
will allow the U.S. to take its troops out of Saudi Arabia, where their
presence has been one of al-Qaeda's biggest grievances. 

Let's be clear:

Though Paul Wolfowitz has friends and admirers at The Weekly Standard, we
would be surprised and more than a little distressed had he actually said
what he's supposed to have said in this instance. 

For the last 12 years,
all specific and sometimes heated policy disagreements notwithstanding,
American presidents of both parties, joining a near-unanimous consensus of
the so-called "world community," have agreed that the Baath party regime's
persistent and never-fully-disclosed WMD program represented a grave threat
to international security. Al Gore, for example, in his much-hyped antiwar
speech last September, acknowledged that "Iraq's search for weapons of mass
destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume
that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power. We know he has
stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his
country." The notion that the Bush administration's prewar reiteration of
this view was a cynical ploy is crackpot. 

For that matter, the notion
that the Bush administration really, really, in its heart of hearts, had
other, preferred reasons for taking out Saddam Hussein--particularly, that
it did so to justify removing its troops from Saudi Arabia--and that the
entire war was therefore a fraud . . . well, this idea, too, is crackpot.

What gives with this Vanity Fair interview, then? 

What gives is that
Tanenhaus has mischaracterized Wolfowitz's remarks, that Vanity Fair's
publicists have mischaracterized Tanenhaus's mischaracterization, and that
Bush administration critics are now indulging in an orgy of righteous
indignation that is dishonest in triplicate. 

Pentagon staffers were wise
enough to tape-record the Tanenhaus-Wolfowitz interview. Prior to
publication of the Vanity Fair piece, they made that transcript available
to its author. And they have since posted the transcript on the Defense
Department's website (www.defenselink.mil). Tanenhaus's assertion that
Wolfowitz "admitted" that "Iraq's WMD had never been the most important
casus belli" turns out to be, not to put too fine a point on it, false.
Here's the relevant section of the conversation: 

TANENHAUS: Was that one
of the arguments that was raised early on by you and others that Iraq
actually does connect, not to connect the dots too much, but the
relationship between Saudi Arabia, our troops being there, and bin Laden's
rage about that, which he's built on so many years, also connects the World
Trade Center attacks, that there's a logic of motive or something like
that? Or does that read too much into-- 

WOLFOWITZ: No, I think it happens
to be correct. The truth is that for reasons that have a lot to do with the
U.S. government bureaucracy we settled on the one issue that everyone could
agree on which was weapons of mass destruction as the core reason, but . .
. there have always been three fundamental concerns. One is weapons of mass
destruction, the second is support for terrorism, the third is the criminal
treatment of the Iraqi people. Actually I guess you could say there's a
fourth overriding one which is the connection between the first two. . . .
The third one by itself, as I think I said earlier, is a reason to help the
Iraqis but it's not a reason to put American kids' lives at risk, certainly
not on the scale we did it. That second issue about links to terrorism is
the one about which there's the most disagreement within the bureaucracy,
even though I think everyone agrees that we killed 100 or so of an al Qaeda
group in northern Iraq in this recent go-around, that we've arrested that
al Qaeda guy in Baghdad who was connected to this guy Zarqawi whom Powell
spoke about in his U.N. presentation. 

In short, Wolfowitz made the
perfectly sensible observation that more than just WMD was of concern, but
that among several serious reasons for war, WMD was the issue about which
there was widest domestic (and international) agreement. 

As for
Tanenhaus's suggestion that Wolfowitz somehow fessed up that the war had a
hidden, "unnoticed but huge" agenda--rationalizing a pre-planned troop
withdrawal from Saudi Arabia--we refer you, again, to the actual interview.
In an earlier section of the conversation, concerning the current, postwar
situation in the Middle East, Wolfowitz explained that the United States
needs to get post-Saddam Iraq "right," and that we also need "to get some
progress on the Israeli-Palestinian issue," which now looks more promising.
Then Wolfowitz said this: 

There are a lot of things that are different
now, and one that has gone by almost unnoticed--but it's huge--is that by
complete mutual agreement between the U.S. and the Saudi government we can
now remove almost all of our forces from Saudi Arabia. Their presence there
over the last 12 years has been a source of enormous difficulty for a
friendly government. . . . I think just lifting that burden from the Saudis
is itself going to open the door to other positive things. 

Tanenhaus has
taken a straightforward and conventional observation about strategic
arrangements in a post-Saddam Middle East and juiced it up into a vaguely
sinister "admission" about America's motives for going to war in the first

The failure so far to discover "stocks" of WMD material in
post-Saddam Iraq raises legitimate questions about the quality of U.S. and
allied intelligence--though no one doubts that Saddam's regime had weapons
of mass destruction, used weapons of mass destruction, and had an ongoing
program to develop more such weapons. Furthermore, people of good will are
entitled to disagree, even in retrospect, about the wisdom and probable
effects of Saddam's forcible removal. But distorting an on-the-record
interview with a Bush administration official in order to create a
quasi-conspiratorial narrative of deceit and deception at the highest
levels of the U.S. government is a disgrace. 

--William Kristol 

R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah {AT} ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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