www.nettime.org
Nettime mailing list archives

<nettime> mysteries of nettime's inner workings revealed
nettime's_moderators on Mon, 21 Oct 2002 13:04:44 +0200 (CEST)


[Date Prev] [Date Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Date Index] [Thread Index]

<nettime> mysteries of nettime's inner workings revealed


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: ____________________________________
To: <nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net>
Subject: _______________ to moderators of nettime
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 01:23:35 -0x00

hi moderator(s)!
i found out about nettime through a post i read at wryting - i like the
content and mission of your mailing list - a lot! - and i would like to
subscribe - please explain for me how to subscribe
cheers,
_____

     <...>

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 12:30:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nettime <nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net>
To: __________________________________
Subject: Re: _______________ to moderators of nettime

Hi,

below's some basic info on how to (un)susbsribe. Best. Felix

     <... standard un/sub instructions ...>

On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, _______________ wrote:

hi moderator(s)!

     <...>

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: ______________________________________
To: "Nettime" <nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net>
Subject: subscribing
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 01:51:01 -0x00
      
hi!
i heard about nettime through rhizome and wryting
i got a notice saying that my subscription to nettime was successful but i
don't know how to post or how to receive the posts of others
cheers,
_____


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:24:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nettime <nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net>
To: ____________________________________
Subject: Re: subscribing

hi ______,

i subscribed you manually to the list.

if you want to post to the list, send a message to
nettime-l {AT} bbs.thing.net. keep in mind, that in general, there is a delay
in the distribution of the messages, which is caused by moderation. 

you find further informations here:   
http://www.nettime.org/info.html  

greetings,

andrea

---------

On Mon, 2 Sep 2002, _______________ wrote:

hi!
i heard about nettime through rhizome and wryting
i got a notice saying that my subscription to nettime was successful but i
don't know how to post or how to receive the posts of others
cheers,
_____

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: ______________________________________
To: "Nettime" <nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net>
Subject: Re: subscribing
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 03:24:18 -0x00
      
andrea hi!
thank you very much for your help!
cheers,
_____

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: ______________________________________
To: "Nettime" <nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net>
Subject: _____ to andrea
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 12:55:35 -0x00
      
andrea hi!
can i post excerpts of my writing to nettime?
cheers,
_____

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:58:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nettime <nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net>
To: ____________________________________
Subject: Re: _____ to andrea

>On Mon, 2 Sep 2002, _______________ wrote:

>andrea hi!
>can i post excerpts of my writing to nettime?

hi _____,

quoting http://www.nettime.org/info.html:

* you can use <nettime> as a forwarding channel, a social text filter, for
own texts, found texts, requests, announcements. if you are unsure whether
something might be appropriate, look through the archives at
<http://www.nettime.org/nettime.w3archive> to get a sense of the list's
range since its inception.

;)
andrea

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

     [the person sent several messages to the list]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 10:55:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nettime <nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net>
To: ____________________________________
cc: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net, Florian Cramer <cantsin {AT} zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Subject: Your texts

Hi _____,

I think you might not be familiar with the cultre of the nettime list
(which has evolved over the last 7 years). First, do not send things
twice. This means more work for everyone without any practical use, a bad
use of the 100% volunteer energy that nettime runs on.  Then, do not send
in so much mail. We try to keep the channel open for discussion, which
means we do not want a few people dominating/flooding the list.

There have bene long and, at times, heated discussions who to deal with
'experimental writing' (for want of a better term) that involve high
volumes of traffic. By and large, we found that they tend to kill
discussions and we have been rather restrictive with them. As a
consquence, Florian Cramer develop the 'unstable disgest' which you might
have seen or are *very* encouraged to look at in the archive. I think your
writing fits well into this digest. Consequently, we will bounce it in the
future to Florian who edits this digest autonomously.

Also, we have just digested your 8 last messages into message which you
should reveive shortly through the normal list (since you are a recent
subscriber and hence at the end of the list of addresses, this might take
a few hours).

best. Felix

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: ______________________________________
To: "Nettime" <nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net>
Subject: _____ to felix
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 04:36:48 -0x00
      
felix hi!
i didn't know i was doing anything that was unsuitable for nettime - didn't
know also i posted a piece twice - i re-posted a piece because i did not see
it posted and thought it didn't make it to nettime - right now i post at
wryting and rhizome - i just got onto nettime 7-11 o-o and webartery - i
just assumed nettime was an open venue for new writing like the other
mailing lists - i'll look at the florian's digest to see what you mean
cheers,
_____

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 00:48:04 +0200
From: Florian Cramer <cantsin {AT} zedat.fu-berlin.de>
To: __________________________________
Subject: Re: _____ to florian
User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i

___,

Nettime is a fairly long-standing, well-regarded net culture mailing
list with several thousands of international subscribers. It's fully
moderated since about five years (although you have the choice to give
you the full unmoderated madness by subscribing to nettime-bold) and
indeed favors (critical) discourse over single, sometimes monomanic
artistic contributions. Since the moderation policy was introduced, it
has naturally alienated artists and artistically inclined people; lists
like 7-11, o-o etc. were founded exactly to compensate for this rift. On
the other hand, as the co-administrator of "rohrpost" (the
German-language equivalent of Nettime with currently 1200 subscribers),
I very much understand and support the Nettime moderation crew in their
hard-working effort to create a space for a working discourse. It is my
experience that fully open lists don't scale; they work nicely with few
subscribers if nobody freaks out (like -IID42 Kandinskij  {AT} 27+ currently
does on thingist and on the eu-gene list for generative art), but
deteriorate without moderation as soon as they have reached such a
critical mass that people consume them and no longer feel it is "their
own" list.

Although my own contributions to Nettime usually fall into the category
of "critical debate" and I am happy that Nettime provides a good space
for them, I have been less happy with the divide between "artists" and
"net cultural debaters" on the list (and I think the Nettime moderators
weren't either). "Nettime unstable digest" is an attempt of
reconciliation. In a format lifted from the Nettime Announcer, it
digests artistic, disruptive and strangely interesting E-Mail from
nettime-bold, wryting, _arc.hive_, o-o, 7-11 and other lists in a single
Nettime posting. There is an informal agreement with the Nettime crew
that unstable won't be more than a weekly E-Mail message of a reasonable
size (+/-30k). The first 9 volumes of unstable digest were compiled and
edited only by me, since vol 10, Béatrice Beaubien - a Canadian software
programmer and writer on, among others, mez - has become a co-editor. We
use the _arc.hive_ mailing list to post beta versions of every upcoming
digest several days in advance so that other people have a chance to
protest or make suggestions. To date, there were no complaints.

Of course, the principles of selecting works are totally subjective and
based on nothing but personal taste. Rule of thumb is to include E-Mail
works which artistically/poetically play with the boundaries and
slippages between natural (English) language, network communication
(including both network protocol code and language conventions of
Internet communication), ASCII Art (i.e.  computer typograms), spam and
program code on the visible level of signifiers, and with the boundaries
of manual and machine creation on the underlying level of grammar ("is
this the work of a spam bot?", "was this text processed with algorithmic
filters?").

I initially feared that unstable digest would lock otherwise disruptive
work into a ghetto, and I still fear to end up as a codework caricature
of Dr. Johnson; but I found that I generally liked the way the
digests mangle the single works they contain into interesting wholes,
thus rendering them less singular and more networked and intertwined.

Btw.:
unstable digest vol _ included your piece ___________________.
vol _ included your piece ________________________________,
vol __ included your piece ________________,
vol __ will include your piece ______________.

-F

     <...>

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:23:35 -0400
From: nettime <nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net>
To: ____________________________________
Subject: your mail

_____--

nettime is moderated by four people; so far, i think, you've only 
dealt with two others. however, since we function as a collective,
i've read with interest your correspondence with felix.

it's happened quite a few times that people have decided that net-
time is an excellent venue for their work, and, therefore, sent a
stream of messages to the list. when this happens, one of the mod-
erators politely suggests to the person that s/he slow down. some
do, some don't. typically, when someone doesn't, we write a filter
that dumps their mail into a low-priority mailbox. since nettime 
is quite a big list, and since the moderators donate their effort
(quite a lot of work) on a volunteer basis, this kind of approach
is necessary.

in the past -- and the list is fairly old at this point -- we have
found that overly programmatic writing doesn't sit well on nettime.
felix has explained why; now i'm going to ask you a bit more force-
fully to send less mail to the list. 

cheers,
t

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

     [too many messages come in again]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:58:55 -0400
From: nettime <nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net>
To: ____________________________________
Subject: Re: your mail

__________________ (Mon 09/09/02 at 07:00 AM -0x00):

> i didn't know i was sending too much material to nettime - i was sending two
> excerpts of my work a day - felix did not tell me how much was too much -
> please let me know how many pieces per day (or per week) nettime wants to
> limit subscribers to

there's no hard-and-fast rule or number; that's not how we think 
about it. i think felix suggested that you look at the archives 
for a sense of the list's style and sensibility in this regard?  
either way, that might be a good idea. the main point is that the
list isn't just another channel to be added onto a list of lists
to blast mail at.

thanks for being so reasonable about this.

cheers,
t

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: ______________________________________
To: <nettime-l {AT} bbs.thing.net>
Subject: _____ to nettime moderators
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 04:04:55 -0x00

how many pieces can i post per day?
cheers,
_____

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 11:35:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nettime <nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net>
To: ____________________________________
Subject: Re: _____ to nettime moderators 

Hi _____,

The question indicates that you didn't really look at the archive to get a
sense of the culture of the list, nor have you read the multiple messages
that I, Ted Byfield or Florian Cramer wrote to you. 

This is not very encouraging.

Nettime is a discussion list. There is NO one who posts several pieces a
day, indeed it's rare that people post several pieces within a WEEK
(though it happens, particularly within a thread).

As we have told you, there is something called 'unstable digest' put
together by Florian and others that deals with "experimental writing".

Your work clearly falls into this category.

The current practice is to bounce your messages to Florian who then
selects those he likes for inclusion in his digest (which he has already
done several times). However, I assume that it's very unlikely that
Florian's digest will include more than the occasional post of your's
simply because there are a lot of people who write good stuff and to keep
things interesting, there needs to be variety.

Also, there are several email lists devoted to experimental writing that
might be a better place for your posts than nettime.

best. Felix <felix {AT} openflows.org>

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: ______________________________________
To: "Nettime" <nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net>
Subject: Re: _____ to nettime moderators
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:06:02 -0x00

my question simply was
"how many pieces can i post per day?"
i was asking for a number
not a speech
you had the chutzpah to post your speech
do you have the balls to post my reply?

cheers,
_____

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: ______________________________________
To: <nettime-l {AT} bbs.thing.net>, "felix" <felix {AT} openflows.org>,
   "Nettime" <nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net>
Subject: Re: _____ to nettime moderators
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:16:09 -0x00

my question simply was
"how many pieces can i post per day?"
all you needed to do was to answer the question
you were not being asked to give a speech
you had the effrontery to post your speech the attitude of which is not very
encouraging
do you have the balls to post my reply?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: ______________________________________
To: <nettime-l {AT} bbs.thing.net>, "Nettime" <nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net>
Subject: _____ to felix
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:41:25 -0x00

you really offended me felix
the speech was really uncalled for
as a moderator your job is to help and moderate
i don't see any of these kinds of skills demonstrated by you in the way in
which you replied to my question
cheers,
_____

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 21:36:08 -0400
From: nettime <nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net>
To: ____________________________________
Subject: Re: _____ to felix

__________________ (Sat 09/14/02 at 09:41 AM -0x00):

> you really offended me felix
> the speech was really uncalled for
> as a moderator your job is to help and moderate
> i don't see any of these kinds of skills demonstrated by you in the way in
> which you replied to my question

if felix has offended you, that's unfortunate. and since he's famously
reasonable and polite, it would also be just about the first time he's
offended anyone in almost 5 years of serving as a mod. i, on the other
hand, have far fewer compunctions about offending people, for the sim-
ple reason that many people are quite willing to indulge in a bullshit
rhetorical game -- like you did -- in which they claim to 'be offended' 
in an effort to limit what or how their interlocutor can respond.

as to your tiresome question about how many messages you can post to 
the list per day, i already answered it:

     there's no hard-and-fast rule or number; that's not how we think
     about it. 

i also wrote:

     it's happened quite a few times that people have decided that net-
     time is an excellent venue for their work, and, therefore, sent a
     stream of messages to the list. when this happens, one of the mod-
     erators politely suggests to the person that s/he slow down. some
     do, some don't. typically, when someone doesn't, we write a filter
     that dumps their mail into a low-priority mailbox. 

felix has very clearly explained to you that NO ONE sends so many mes-
sages to the list that it would make sense to enumerate them on a per-
day basis. in effect, that means that the number of messages you can
send to the list 'per day' is a fraction closer to zero than to one. so,
if you'd like an answer, here it is: you can send zero or more messages
to the list each day. the more you send, the greater the likelihood that
you'll be wasting your own time and our time.

you can, of course, send as many messages per day as you would like, but
we -- both felix and i have explained how the mod group will handle the
situation if you do so: (a) by filtering them to a low-priority mailbox,
and (b) by bouncing some to the people who create the 'unstable' digest.

cheers,
t

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


From: ______________________________________
To: "nettime" <nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net>
Subject: Re: _____ to felix and nettime moderators
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:56:18 -0x00

nothing in your long-winded reply really answers a simple question
try this:
Q: how many posts per day
A: 1 or 2 or 3
this is elementary
you are the who is guilty of what you blame me for: "indulging in a bullshit
rhetorical game"
neither of you are equipped with what it takes to moderate a mailing list
you lack decorum, courtesy, modesty, helpfulness and politeness
cheers,
_____

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

----- End forwarded message -----
#  distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
#  <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body
#  archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net