<nettime> [digest] Re: The Rise of dot-communism

["nettime's_digestive_system" <nettime-l@bbs.thing.net>]

1.......Russell Pearson
2.......Mitchell Orlowsky
3.......Mitchell Orlowsky


From: Russell Pearson <R.Pearson@hud.ac.uk>
To: nettime-l@bbs.thing.net
Subject: RE: <nettime> The Rise of dot-communism
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:45:41 -0000

> An old Telos aand Lukacs reader (who else has read his
> *Ontology*) turned
> software executive (ah, the family obligations), I have found
> a forum for
> my mind. Anyway, I am jumping into the fray not knowing who is reading
> this, but my intellect is crying out for criticism.

In a world of where Lukacs' concept of reification now holds full sway,
even the slightest detour from its usual trajectory gets celebrated- hence
dot-communism.

Russell

From: "Mitchell Orlowsky" <MOrlowsk@g2x.com>
To: nettime-l@bbs.thing.net
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 08:54:52 -0500
Subject: The Rise of dot-communism

Ronda

Thanks for the thoughtful and helpful response.

I agree with you that within the context of the online experience the
online experience has been democratic and participatory. Truly, it is a
great human achievement. The threats are very real to it from BOTH industry
motives and government failure to act, failure to act appropriately, etc.

I think the greater question that I come back to is that while more
individuals can participate and influence the online experience, we need to
distinguish the online experience from *experience* and the public sphere.
We can't reflexively equate the public sphere and online experience can we?
And we certainly cannot equate the online experience with the entire
lebensvelt, which I think is the great risk.

You wrote...
"The forum showed that the online process provides a means for input into
government decisions. How to get government to recognize hear that input is
the next challenge.

The forum stands as a demonstration that the online participatory nature of
the Internet is such that it makes it possible for the public to
participate in important issues in a means that was in the past
unprecedented."

and I think this is the most important truth in what you have to say. As
someone who works in the commercial world commercializing the Internet, I
have to say that even within the context of commercial organizations the
Internet has done wonders to democratize the workplace and to make
collaboration possible (another discussion, another time).

Your point about Habermas' point is a good reminder. We also need to be
wary of Vonnegut's conclusion in the "Player Piano:" lets not let managers
and engineers be the ones to frame the relevance of any question.

Regards,

Mitchell



From: "Mitchell Orlowsky" <MOrlowsk@g2x.com>
To: nettime-l@bbs.thing.net
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:14:44 -0500
Subject: Re: <nettime> The Rise of dot-communism

Ronda and Mark,

Part of what is so disconcerting about Ronda's position is it reminds of
what I call "bad postmodernism."

In bad postmodernism, everything becomes the text, everything refers to
something within a closed system, everything is analyzable within a system
defined by the author as "the world." For Foucault, this was
methodologically useful, for Derrida it was philosophically relevant, for
almost everyone else, it is an excuse to not be rigorous.

So, what you are saying Ronda is that because so many people get to
contribute to the on-line experience (the world as you define it), the
world is democratic. But in fact, YOUR world FEELS democratic. There is a
whole big world out there that is not going to participate in the way you
like, and that is very undemocratic.

Frankly, your position scares me. You are unselfconscious about your
premises. Most importantly, you substitute the public sphere with your
definition of it. Too often, under words like "open" and "tolerant" (and
"friendly"), we can be chastised out of discourse.

Look forward to more,

Mitchell


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