Re: <nettime> Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can change it.

I've been active long ago, and lurking for a decade or more, with only sporadic comments and adds: this look like a good prod to get us silent majority out of the closet.

the thing that keeps nettime valuable is a) the contributors, timeliness, and swift smart dialogues and b) that there still seems to be a common purpose.

social media start taking the forefront about ten years ago. The neo-populist right begins to replace the neo-liberal right about ten years ago. Is there some shared diagram?

Other lists died for their own reasons: one because it seemed like everything interesting was on blogs, back when the blogosphere was a thing. Another because a concept / art movement / political trajectory could be exhausted so fast it scarcely seemed worth inventing new concepts etc.

Mailing lists are asynchronous, which is great: more time to think; less kudos for fast reaction times. More consideration in every sense of the word

in a few days I'll try to post something closer than this reflection on the medium to what I think this list is for: the aesthetics, politics and aesthetic politics of the early C21st -- consideration, wonder and hope

Sean

From: nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org <nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org> on behalf of nettime-l-request@mail.kein.org <nettime-l-request@mail.kein.org>
Sent: 08 June 2019 15:45
To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org
Subject: nettime-l Digest, Vol 141, Issue 11

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can change   it.
      (John Preston)
   2. The Maker Movement is abandoned by its corporate sponsors;
      throws in the towel (Bruce Sterling)
   3. Re: Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can change   it.
      (John Preston)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2019 15:06:56 +0100
From: John Preston <wcerfgba@riseup.net>
To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org
Subject: Re: <nettime> Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can
        change it.
Message-ID: <07A59428-BF8F-419B-841A-EA06BDDB2B98@riseup.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Just forwarding this up.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Karim Brohi <karim@trauma.org>
Sent: 8 June 2019 14:35:45 BST
To: John Preston <wcerfgba@riseup.net>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can change it.

Nettime is in bad shape - as are most (all?) of the email based discussion
groups on the Interwebs now.
I run another mailing list, started in 1995 in a medical specialty area- -
which finds itself in the same state. Back then email was cool. Now, for
most, email tends to be a flood of work stuff and a pseudo todo list.
Drafting an email is now work, and not associated with pleasure or pure
intellectual pursuit.

But there's no other suitable medium either. Social media platforms are
too brief to develop ideas. Too easy to fire back "your idea is stupid".
Blog posts and newsletters are too one-sided. Developed/owned by a
specific individual/group of individuals, Comments never have the same
precedence as the original post. The post 'belongs' to the originator, not
to the community.

Maybe usenet/google groups comes close, but nobody uses them - perhaps
because there's no (effective) 'app for that', and there has to be an
active process of logging in. (Email alerts end up in... email).

In brief - I think it's the medium not the message. The whole Internet
needs a new medium that encourages long-form discourse and thereby deep
community. That was email, but now it isn't email. I don't know what is
now.

Karim

On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 at 21:34, John Preston <wcerfgba@riseup.net> wrote:

> Just adding my two cents, as per the call. :)
>
> I only discovered nettime in the last few months. I'm a computer-child,
> I've grown up on the net, and one of the people who now take a more
> conservative or critical approach to tech. I came here because I am trying
> to develop as an artist, working with the net as a medium and reflecting
> critically on the net and its constituent parts. I don't post in to every
> thread because a lot of the time I don't have anything worthwhile to add,
> but I appreciate reading: most of the contributions on this list are really
> insightful.
>
> The fact that people are posting meta threads like this is a good sign to
> me, I appreciate a community that can take a critical view of itself. If
> nettime does rap up, let me know where you all go, I'd like to talk more. :)
>
> John
>
> On 7 June 2019 18:38:46 BST, nettime mod squad <nettime@kein.org> wrote:
>>
>> Nettime is in bad shape, don't you think?
>>
>> It has still a lot of goodwill, and more generally there's renewed
>> interest in formats of exchange and collective thinking that
>> aren't defined by the logic of social media. But the dynamics that
>> social media companies exploit are hardly limited to a handful of
>> platforms. For example, nettime has its own 'influencers' -- a 1%,
>> so to speak -- who generate the vast majority of list traffic.
>> That's been true for years. The discussions they sustain may
>> variously seem interesting or annoying, but either way they've
>> become somewhat formulaic. An attentive reader knows more or less
>> what to expect based solely the subject and the sender; and even
>> meta-discussions about whether the list is dominated or by this or
>> that tendency are largely dominated by the same few people.
>>
>> Some might argue the debates that have animated nettime over the
>> last year -- the trajectories of postwar society, neoliberalism,
>> the 'digital,' complexity, surveillance and big tech, Brexit,
>> media and elections, Assange, even the Anthropocene in all its
>> terrifying inclusiveness -- are the defining issues of the day.
>> Maybe so. But if the nettime project had settled for a consensus
>> model of the defining issues of the mid-'90s, it would never have
>> gotten off the ground, and it certainly wouldn't exist almost 25
>> years later. The challenge, we think, is to maintain a space that
>> attracts ill-defined ideas and uncertain issues -- things and
>> not-things that don't quite exist yet and yet haven't been buried
>> under torrents of authority and theory.
>>
>> So, what can we do?
>>
>> In the past, we've asked people to think about outreach -- say,
>> inviting new people from new contexts. It seems like that's had
>> limited success; but at a time when nettime has been limping
>> along, it's hard to get excited about inviting people to join an
>> environment so heavily defined by habit. We've also joked that
>> shutting it down before it fades into complete senescence might be
>> best. But that joke wasn't really funny, in part because it wasn't
>> meant to be: it was a way of expressing serious concerns about the
>> list's increasingly parochial status.
>>
>> Now, we have a simple proposal: let's switch roles.
>>
>> It goes like this:
>>
>> If you've posted more than others to the list in the last 60 or 90
>> or 120 or 180 days -- the math matters less than the spirit -- take
>> a break. Let others define nettime, a space made up of nearly 5000
>> subscribers.
>>
>> If you haven't posted to the list -- say, because it seemed like
>> your ideas, concerns, or whatever you want to share wouldn't fit
>> with nettime's habits -- maybe that will change.
>>
>> Think of it as an un-grand experiment: a way to see what else
>> might happen, who else might speak, what less familiar ideas,
>> perspectives, or styles might spring up. Maybe the list will fade
>> into silence, and we'll be left with a paradoxical object, a list
>> composed *entirely* of lurkers -- not such a bad non-end for
>> nettime. Or maybe not. There might be many ways to find out. For
>> now, rather than the 1% debating how narrowly to define good
>> manners, let's see if a different 'we' can change things.
>>
>>
>> -- the mod squad (Ted and Felix)
>>
>> # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
>> # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
>> # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
>> # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
>> # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@kein.org
>> # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
>>
>> # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
> # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
> # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
> # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
> # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@kein.org
> # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 16:21:37 +0200
From: Bruce Sterling <bruces@well.com>
To: nettime-l@kein.org
Subject: <nettime> The Maker Movement is abandoned by its corporate
        sponsors; throws in the towel
Message-ID: <A342CE24-4F26-441E-BDBE-38F833458B29@well.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8

*Well, so much for the O?Reilly Web 2.0 version of popular mechanics. Fifteen years is not too bad a run by the standards of an increasingly jittery California Ideology. Now what? ? Bruce S

Maker Media goes broke
https://hackaday.com/2019/06/07/maker-media-ceases-operations/

Over the years we?ve had the dubious honor of bidding farewell to numerous companies that held a special place in the hearts of hackers and makers. We?ve borne witness to the demise of Radio Shack, TechShop, and PrintrBot, and even shed a tear or two when Toys ?R? Us shut their doors. But as much as it hurt to see those companies go, nothing quite compares to this. Today we?ve learned that Maker Media has ceased operations.

Between the first issue of Make magazine in 2005 and the inaugural Maker Faire a year later, Maker Media deftly cultured the public face of the ?maker movement? for over a decade. They didn?t create maker culture, but there?s no question that they put a spotlight on this part of the larger tech world. In fact, it?s not an exaggeration to say that the shuttering of Maker Media could have far reaching consequences that we won?t fully understand for years.

While this news will surely come as a crushing blow to many in the community, Maker Media founder and CEO Dale Dougherty says they?re still trying to put the pieces together. ?I started the magazine and I?m committed to keeping that going because it means something to a lot of people and means something to me.? At this point, Dale tells us that Maker Media is officially in a state of insolvency. This is an important distinction, and means that the company still has a chance to right the ship before being forced to declare outright bankruptcy.

In layman?s terms, the fate of Make magazine and Maker Faire is currently uncertain?

***

https://techcrunch.com/2019/06/07/make-magazine-maker-media-layoffs/

Financial troubles have forced Maker Media, the company behind crafting publication MAKE: magazine as well as the science and art festival Maker Faire, to lay off its entire staff of 22 and pause all operations. TechCrunch was tipped off to Maker Media?s unfortunate situation which was then confirmed by the company?s founder and CEO Dale Dougherty.

For 15 years, MAKE: guided adults and children through step-by-step do-it-yourself crafting and science projects, and it was central to the maker movement. Since 2006, Maker Faire?s 200 owned and licensed events per year in over 40 countries let attendees wander amidst giant, inspiring art and engineering installations?.

?Maker Media Inc ceased operations this week and let go of all of its employees ? about 22 employees? Dougherty tells TechCrunch. ?I started this 15 years ago and it?s always been a struggle as a business to make this work. Print publishing is not a great business for anybody, but it works?barely. Events are hard ? there was a drop off in corporate sponsorship.? Microsoft and Autodesk failed to sponsor this year?s flagship Bay Area Maker Faire?.

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2019 07:45:08 -0700
From: John Preston <wcerfgba@riseup.net>
To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org
Subject: Re: <nettime> Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can
        change it.
Message-ID: <f8f8006bb46447a36e1e1a7d5171fbda@riseup.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Each medium of communication has a different quality and bandwidth about
it, and we can use a multitude of media -- nettime doesn't have to be
/just/ a mailing list. Some of us might be better able to contribute via
IRC or other more real-time media.

John

On 2019-06-08 15:06, John Preston wrote:

> Just forwarding this up.
>
> -------------------------
> FROM: Karim Brohi <karim@trauma.org>
> SENT: 8 June 2019 14:35:45 BST
> TO: John Preston <wcerfgba@riseup.net>
> SUBJECT: Re: <nettime> Nettime is in bad shape. Let's see if we can change it.
>
> Nettime is in bad shape - as are most (all?) of the email based discussion groups on the Interwebs now.
> I run another mailing list, started in 1995 in a medical specialty area- - which finds itself in the same state. Back then email was cool. Now, for most, email tends to be a flood of work stuff and a pseudo todo list. Drafting an email is now work, and not associated with pleasure or pure intellectual pursuit.
>
> But there's no other suitable medium either. Social media platforms are too brief to develop ideas. Too easy to fire back "your idea is stupid". Blog posts and newsletters are too one-sided. Developed/owned by a specific individual/group of individuals, Comments never have the same precedence as the original post. The post 'belongs' to the originator, not to the community.
>
> Maybe usenet/google groups comes close, but nobody uses them - perhaps because there's no (effective) 'app for that', and there has to be an active process of logging in. (Email alerts end up in... email).
>
> In brief - I think it's the medium not the message. The whole Internet needs a new medium that encourages long-form discourse and thereby deep community. That was email, but now it isn't email. I don't know what is now.
>
> Karim
>
> On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 at 21:34, John Preston <wcerfgba@riseup.net> wrote:
> Just adding my two cents, as per the call. :)
>
> I only discovered nettime in the last few months. I'm a computer-child, I've grown up on the net, and one of the people who now take a more conservative or critical approach to tech. I came here because I am trying to develop as an artist, working with the net as a medium and reflecting critically on the net and its constituent parts. I don't post in to every thread because a lot of the time I don't have anything worthwhile to add, but I appreciate reading: most of the contributions on this list are really insightful.
>
> The fact that people are posting meta threads like this is a good sign to me, I appreciate a community that can take a critical view of itself. If nettime does rap up, let me know where you all go, I'd like to talk more. :)
>
> John
>
> On 7 June 2019 18:38:46 BST, nettime mod squad <nettime@kein.org> wrote:
>
> Nettime is in bad shape, don't you think?
>
> It has still a lot of goodwill, and more generally there's renewed
> interest in formats of exchange and collective thinking that
> aren't defined by the logic of social media. But the dynamics that
> social media companies exploit are hardly limited to a handful of
> platforms. For example, nettime has its own 'influencers' -- a 1%,
> so to speak -- who generate the vast majority of list traffic.
> That's been true for years. The discussions they sustain may
> variously seem interesting or annoying, but either way they've
> become somewhat formulaic. An attentive reader knows more or less
> what to expect based solely the subject and the sender; and even
> meta-discussions about whether the list is dominated or by this or
> that tendency are largely dominated by the same few people.
>
> Some might argue the debates that have animated nettime over the
> last year -- the trajectories of postwar society, neoliberalism,
> the 'digital,' complexity, surveillance and big tech, Brexit,
> media and elections, Assange, even the Anthropocene in all its
> terrifying inclusiveness -- are the defining issues of the day.
> Maybe so. But if the nettime project had settled for a consensus
> model of the defining issues of the mid-'90s, it would never have
> gotten off the ground, and it certainly wouldn't exist almost 25
> years later. The challenge, we think, is to maintain a space that
> attracts ill-defined ideas and uncertain issues -- things and
> not-things that don't quite exist yet and yet haven't been buried
> under torrents of authority and theory.
>
> So, what can we do?
>
> In the past, we've asked people to think about outreach -- say,
> inviting new people from new contexts. It seems like that's had
> limited success; but at a time when nettime has been limping
> along, it's hard to get excited about inviting people to join an
> environment so heavily defined by habit. We've also joked that
> shutting it down before it fades into complete senescence might be
> best. But that joke wasn't really funny, in part because it wasn't
> meant to be: it was a way of expressing serious concerns about the
> list's increasingly parochial status.
>
> Now, we have a simple proposal: let's switch roles.
>
> It goes like this:
>
> If you've posted more than others to the list in the last 60 or 90
> or 120 or 180 days -- the math matters less than the spirit -- take
> a break. Let others define nettime, a space made up of nearly 5000
> subscribers.
>
> If you haven't posted to the list -- say, because it seemed like
> your ideas, concerns, or whatever you want to share wouldn't fit
> with nettime's habits -- maybe that will change.
>
> Think of it as an un-grand experiment: a way to see what else
> might happen, who else might speak, what less familiar ideas,
> perspectives, or styles might spring up. Maybe the list will fade
> into silence, and we'll be left with a paradoxical object, a list
> composed *entirely* of lurkers -- not such a bad non-end for
> nettime. Or maybe not. There might be many ways to find out. For
> now, rather than the 1% debating how narrowly to define good
> manners, let's see if a different 'we' can change things.
>
> -- the mod squad (Ted and Felix)
>
> # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
> # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
> # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
> # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
> # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@kein.org
> # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
> # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
> # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
> # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
> # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
> # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@kein.org
> # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:

# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
# more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@kein.org
# @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:

------------------------------

# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
# more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l

End of nettime-l Digest, Vol 141, Issue 11
******************************************