Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights [3x]

["nettime's international court of justice" <nettime-l@bbs.thing.net>]

Table of Contents:

   Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)                           
     Benjamin Geer <ben@socialtools.net>                                             

   Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)                           
     Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106@uni-bonn.de>                                          

   Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)                           
     Benjamin Geer <ben@socialtools.net>                                             



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Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 19:08:45 +0100
From: Benjamin Geer <ben@socialtools.net>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)

Heiko Recktenwald wrote:
>>>A confessed murder, well, this is history, like the confessed murderers in
>>>Poland and elsewhere, who evicted major parts of the population after WW
>>>2. 30 years is enough.
>>
>>Do you therefore also believe that, for example, it was wrong to
>>extradite Klaus Barbie from Bolivia and put him on trial in France in
>>1987, 40 years after the fact?
> 
> Beautifull question, this is really another topic.
> 
> Those were crimes against humanity and two countries were involved.

A 'crime against humanity' should be punished, but not the murder of 
four human beings and the paralysis of a fifth?  'Two countries were 
involved': crimes against states should be punished, but not crimes 
against individuals?

> Here we have the question if we want peace in Italy.

Sorry, I don't understand: you think peace in Italy depends on what 
happens to Battisti?

There seems to be a broad consensus in Italy about 1970s leftist 
terrorist groups: even Refondazione comunista has declared that 
non-violence is the the only acceptable form of struggle.  The Italian 
press, both left and right, has reacted with incomprehension and 
indignation to the support that prominent French intellectuals have 
voiced for Battisti.

So it seems that many Italians would feel more peaceful about this 
particular matter if Battisti were returned to Italy, and would even be 
prepared to forgive him if he repented.  But if he remains unrepentant, 
why should he be forgiven?  To turn around well-known slogan, how does 
injustice promote peace?

Ben


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Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 00:47:31 +0200 (CEST)
From: Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106@uni-bonn.de>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)

Dear Benjamin,

> A 'crime against humanity' should be punished, but not the murder of
> four human beings and the paralysis of a fifth?  'Two countries were
> involved': crimes against states should be punished, but not crimes
> against individuals?

You are missing the point. The question is not if it was murder, but if
there should be an amnesty. The legal system is not everything, see the
things that happened at Geneva.


And I think 30 years are enough for an amnesty.


Best, H.


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Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 00:38:56 +0100
From: Benjamin Geer <ben@socialtools.net>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)

Heiko Recktenwald wrote:
> The question is not if it was murder, but if
> there should be an amnesty.

But you have given no reason why there should be an amnesty, except for 
a mysterious reference to 'peace in Italy'.

> And I think 30 years are enough for an amnesty.

Now we're going in circles: if 30 years are enough, Klaus Barbie should 
have had an amnesty, too.  Or is there a sliding scale?  All murders 
should be forgiven if the murderer manages to escape prison for 30 
years, unless they killed more than 100,000 people, in which case they 
have to wait 10 additional years for every 100,000 people killed?

 > The legal system is not everything, see the things that happened at
 > Geneva.

I assume you mean Genoa.  What exactly is your point?  That since 'the 
legal system is not everything' it should not be used at all?  Perhaps 
the policemen accused of beating activists in Genoa shouldn't stand 
trial.  Or if convicted, they should just flee to France; perhaps the 
French president will grant them amnesty, too.

While we're at it, maybe the American soldiers and CIA agents who have 
been torturing Iraqis could go to France, too.  I'm sure they'll be 
delighted to know that they just have to enjoy Paris for 30 years, and 
all will be forgiven.  In fact, perhaps France should officially declare 
itself a 'nation of impunity', and invite all the world's murderers to 
move there.

Ben


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