<nettime> IWPR: Dialogue in Skopje

["geert lovink" <geert@xs4all.nl>]

From: Institute for War & Peace Reporting <info@iwpr.net

IWPR'S BALKAN CRISIS REPORT, NO. 282, Part II, September 21, 2001
VISIT IWPR ON-LINE: http://www.iwpr.net

DIALOGUE IN SKOPJE

Branko Geroski, editor-in-chief of the leading independent Macedonian daily
Dnevnik, and Kim Mehmeti, novelist and a founder of the leading independent
Albanian weekly Lobi, spoke in the offices of Dnevnik on September 10 with
IWPR executive editor Anthony Borden and IWPR Macedonia project director
Agim Fetahaj.

IWPR: What is your view of the current situation in Macedonia - have we
passed the worst, or is it yet to come?

Branko Geroski:  Obviously, the end of the crisis has not come yet. The
situation is very complicated, very tense. There are hidden agendas which we
cannot influence, and which - although I don't like conspiracy theories - do
overcome our capacity, as an ethnic community. So it is very hard, and I
simply do not know what will happen next.

Kim Mehmeti: I think everything depends on the international community.
Macedonia has already made a step towards one kind of "Libanization": not
only do ethnic Albanians have their own military structures which the state
institutions regard as illegal but the police themselves have created
paramilitary structures. So unless everyone in Macedonia is disarmed, the
country will retain its potential for conflict, low-level but with great
risk for the whole Balkans.

It will be especially risky if a security vacuum appears after NATO's
mandate is completed and space for revenge emerges. In this case, the
international efforts will collapse like a house of cards, and I believe
this would be the final end of Macedonia.

Geroski: I appreciate Kim's desire for a total demilitarisation, but the
trend is towards even more arms in Macedonia. At the moment, we have a new
NATO mission, which means new weapons, new soldiers and, in some instances,
new problems. Unfortunately, instead of a process of demilitarisation, the
society is being militarised. Even the Ohrid agreement includes ways of
restructuring the police, and Albanians have proposed ways for restructuring
the army. But until now there has been no proposal on how to reduce arms and
the means of killing.

Mehmeti: I am not naive. I know the consequences of having a foreign army in
one's own fatherland. But I am not talking about destroying local arms only
in order to have German or someone else's tanks here. I see the arrival of
foreign arms as a means to destroy the domestic ones. After that, we would
be in a situation were we wouldn't have to think of arms as the only way of
solving our problems.

IWPR: What are the key factors that will determine the success of the peace
plan?

Geroski: The key factor is the willingness of both ethnic communities to
make it happen. In the new agreement, we have designed a system that looks
like consensual democracy. It is a system that will satisfy the appetites of
the Albanians and of the international community. The problem is that we
could have reached these changes in three or four years of political, not
real, fighting. With Macedonia beginning the process of association with the
EU, certainly Brussels could have put great pressures on the Macedonian
authorities.

Now we may have a great system, but there is no content in the relations
between Macedonians and Albanians. Trust has been lost. Albanians constantly
pointed out that we had never been at war with each other. Now that is lost.
We have had war, and this will make it difficult to take crucial decisions
about the future of the country.

Let me remind you that Yugoslavia was a perfectly designed system of
consensual democracy. What we have here is not even as advanced as the
decision-making structure of the Yugoslav state system, but even that
country disintegrated.

So we fear that the peace process will merely cement current relations. The
peace process itself does not mean anything if it doesn't bring development,
a chance for progress for both ethnic communities. That chance may not be
lost forever, but I fear that it is lost for the moment.

Mehmeti: The design to rearrange Macedonia is wonderful, an optimal solution
for the Albanian side. But it all depends on the human material to put
together, and that is us, the citizens of Macedonia.

Wisdom that grows out of this tragic situation is hardened, and leaves no
room for doubt. If Macedonian citizens have truly concluded that the country
can only survive based on the will of all of its citizens, and not just some
of its communities, then that is a sufficient basis for us to turn towards
each other.

We have already demonstrated that in every area, if the two most numerous
communities want to destroy the country, they can do it. But we can take a
positive lesson from this and realise that we, the Macedonians and the
Albanians, exist not just to spite each other but in fact to share a common
goal.

The framework agreement offers a definitive break from the Leninist concept
of state-building, the 19th century concept, whereby the most numerous
community chooses the design and we, the others, take part in that only to
the extent that we are allowed. If Macedonia abandons this concept with a
sound conscience, it will regain the advantage it had, compared to its
neighbours.

On the other hand, if the percentage of Macedonians who think they are not
able to live with Albanians increases, or if the Albanians start to close
themselves off, then we will see the creation of ethnic borders. In Bitola,
now, there are no more Albanians, while it is difficult to be a Macedonian
in Tetovo. The challenge is to halt this draining of these unsafe enclaves.

Geroski: All of Kim's nice wishes will be drowned out when the first gun
starts firing after the end of this harvest, when the first serious incident
happens. Let's not be naive. We are still at war with each other. Only
elementary political preconditions have been created for peace, but I doubt
that this war has ended. I think politically extreme Albanians received a
very clear message from the Western powers: if you want to achieve political
goals, reach for arms, fight and you will succeed! I admit that armed
Albanian militants managed to achieve their goals, at least in part. This
tells me that the story is not over. So I am rather pessimistic, and feel
peace is far away.

Mehmeti: I know that my hopes could be killed off right away. On my way
home, I have to pass three checkpoints where reservists of Ljube Boskovski
[the interior minister, alleged by some to be responsible for the killings
at Ljuboten] will ask for my identity card, and everything depends on
whether they are drunk or sober! So I have no illusions. I know that it is
easy to start a war, and peace requires time and effort.

But I am fascinated with my friends, the Macedonians. They always seem to
know what we Albanians think. Let me tell you how we understand the message
from the West: "You Albanians be careful because this is the last time you
will manage to survive. Any more games in the future could be very risky."

I absolutely agree that the process of "de-Yugoslavisation" of the Balkans
is not finished. For me it will be completed when the status of Kosovo and
Montenegro are defined. Then, and if there is international support,
including an extended military presence, the Macedonian story will be
closed.

IWPR:What is your view of the international involvement in the conflict,
especially the role of NATO?

Geroski: They have been clumsy. Kim's answer just proves my point about
encouraging the use of force to reach political goals. As Kim and all
Albanian intellectuals confirm, the issue of Kosovo has still not been
resolved, and it will touch the interests of all the Balkan countries,
especially Serbia and Yugoslavia, as well as the international community.
Montenegro, too, is yet to come, which means also the status of Albanians in
Montenegro.

So I would like to be convinced that the message to the Albanians is, "This
is your last game". I would like to hear one Albanian say, "OK, we got what
we got, we are satisfied. That's it. The goal has been reached. Now we can
live in peace." Unfortunately, we don't get that message. The story of the
Albanians in the Balkans continues. The crisis continues. There will be more
wars, more problems and more troubles involving the international community.

Mehmeti: I don't think Albanians and Macedonians should stop searching for
beauty. They should continue, but not with arms. Until Tanusevci [the
village north of Skopje where fighting first erupted this spring], Macedonia
was the pampered child of Europe. Probably Europe knew this child was
disabled in its inter-ethnic relations, and so was always indulged.

Lately, among Albanians there is a very good joke: Who should Ali Ahmeti
[the National Liberation Army leader] thank the most? The
Macedonian-language media and the government of Macedonia who recruited his
army.

Don't forget that until March, the international community had a very clear
position towards the crisis in Macedonia, fully backing the government. But
this position changed when they saw that the state institutions are not real
public institutions but ones only interested in protecting one community. It
changed when they saw that the Macedonian-language media did not hesitate to
collectivise the guilt: from a child to a hen - an Albanian hen - they are
all guilty, all legitimate targets.

>From that moment, the international community was left with no other choice
but to take a position, telling the government: respond, but proportionally.
They saw that the brothers rushed to buy helicopters with tax money they had
taken in part from Albanians, but that only Albanian houses were destroyed.
They saw people who claimed that destroying a church is barbarism but
destroying a mosque is a legitimate target. People who even declared that we
are the Taleban, but made no such remarks when the mosques in Prilep and
Bitola were set on fire.

The president and the government of this country expressed their condolences
to the families of every soldier who was murdered. But we never once heard
them express their condolences to the families where an Albanian child was
killed. So the country's institutions were not prepared to protect their
citizens. That's why we the Albanians had the right to ask the West for
protection.

Geroski: Things are not as Mehmeti presents them. First, we cannot forget a
very important fact: who started the war. It was Albanian "thugs", as George
Robertson [the NATO secretary-general] called them at the outset. The
victims in this war are the Macedonians. This war was to conquer a piece of
Macedonian territory, and it is still going on. I'm completely aware that it
will be achieved with NATO's new mission. A piece of territory will
definitely be beyond the control of the state of Macedonia.

Inappropriate behaviour did take place, as the foreigners say, on both
sides. But the international community was biased. If ever there was a
pampered child in the Balkans it was the Albanians - supported by the US,
the EU and, in the Kosovo war, NATO.

Now, what's done is done. The winners on the battlefield should be
congratulated. But what will come out of it all? What will life be like in
Western Macedonia, in the "Tetovo ghetto"? What will the state look like?
Will it be luckier than the previous one? These are the big questions.

Were the other states that went through the hell of war - Bosnia and
Herzegovina, Croatia and Yugoslavia - happier and richer afterwards?
Everything that the Albanians in Macedonia achieved with arms and killings
could have been achieved by political means. In the civilised world,
political goals are achieved with political means. In Kosovo that was
impossible, but in Macedonia it was possible. This is why what was done in
Macedonia was a great sin.

Mehmeti: I don't argue that the Albanians started the war. At least we agree
on something. But I could prove that Albanians never reached for guns to
attack the Macedonians; they attacked institutions. They never attacked a
single settlement, not one!

Macedonians also claim that Albanians occupied territory. Would my house
have been occupied by the Albanians? It is Albanian! Speaking in ethnic, not
state, terms, I always thought that my field is Albanian, not Macedonian.
But during this war I realised that Macedonians treat me as a subtenant in
this country. If I'm not satisfied with my house and I raise my voice, they
will tell me how to behave since it is Macedonian.

I agree that there were some who anticipated war and then urged it on - look
at the proposal of the academics [the Macedonian Academy of Arts and
Sciences, which floated a map dividing the country into ethnic areas]. But
this war would have ended three months ago but for the rejection of the
proposal of Robert Frowick [former OSCE official in Macedonia, who proposed
a mechanism for including the rebels in peace talks]. In fact, Albanians
exceeded themselves and were expecting someone to be clever enough to say,
Stop.

Now Branko claims that it all could have been achieved through political
dialogue. Why wasn't it after Tanusevci? Why didn't someone say, "Look, the
way this has started it will burn everything out." But no, first they wanted
to stick Macedonian flags in Albanian villages and only then negotiate.
That's why I say that Albanians were provoked, and that the NLA was formed
by intellectuals, media and political dilettantes from here.

IWPR: Both of you have long been identified as political moderates. But
recently some have seen a change. Branko has written texts suggesting that
the only solution is a military one. Kim has insisted - except for in this
conversation - on using interpreters with his long-time Macedonian friends.
So have your attitudes and political orientation changed?

Geroski: I'm convinced that neither of our positions changed. Reality
changed, significantly.

The Lesok monastery is changed because half of it is gone. The mosques in
Prilep and Bitola are changed because the one in Prilep is gone. Seventy
Macedonian families are left without the heads of their families, killed,
most of them not in a soldierly way but in a cowardly way.

The country is definitely changed. People lost their trust. I'm not
optimistic like Kim that very soon we'll dance the Kozara dance [a Yugoslav
dance that symbolized brotherhood and unity] and we'll hug and kiss each
other and we will be happy until the end of our lives. It won't happen soon.

To opt for peace means to have principles. I was the first one who publicly
proposed changing the text in the preamble to the constitution [a key
Albanian demand]. I was the one who supported peace up to the last hour of
the negotiations. But I do not accept the occupation of Tetovo by some
bandits.

In the comment published in Dnevnik for which all of you point at me, moving
me completely unfairly to the camp of the militant Macedonians, I said the
following: there won't be any peace in Macedonia unless we comply with what
was agreed. It was not agreed to occupy Tetovo and other territories.

We all know who started the offensive the day the Ohrid agreement was
initialled. That's not politics. That's pressure on an entire nation.

Kim and I could discuss how we should design this flat of ours. I have my
own room, he has his own room. Or in this country of ours, where he has a
house and 5 kilometres away I have my own. But if you come and tell me that
this is no longer my room, that I have to move out, as 70,000 ethnic
Macedonians were told, I would have no choice but to defend my room in our
mutual flat - ie, my house in our common country.

The issue is not your house, Kim, and your field, which you quite rightfully
consider Albanian. Only 5 kilometres from your house is my house - my house
is the issue. Macedonians are driven away from the Tetovo area, not
Albanians. I would like to see one Albanian intellectual say: "Stop, people.
We should not drive these people away from their historic hearths, because
that is not right." At this moment 70,000 Macedonians are driven away from
their homes, and 50,000-60,000 Albanians fled as a result of the war. That's
the only thing where we are equal: in the consequences and the sufferings of
the war. But we are not equal in sharing responsibility for the injustice.

Mehmeti: Macedonian reality has changed, and I tried very hard not to change
along with it. To stay as I was. During this period I had more than 20
interviews with media both here and abroad in which I sent a message to the
Albanians: if you start feeling joy when houses are burned or children are
killed, I don't need such a victory.

But even in the mathematics we differ. Branko mentions 70 casualties and I
will mention about 400. The reason is that I count all the new graves in
Macedonia, Macedonian and Albanian. I include Albanian casualties as well -
children, women, ten people from Ljuboten . . . He counts only the
Macedonians, as if they were the only victims. The entire time, the media,
parliament, everyone claims that in Macedonia there are only 70 victims. The
government counts only the policemen and the soldiers. It does not count the
child killed in Poroj. It's pitiful.

Albanians and Macedonians in Macedonia will win the battle only if they are
courageous enough to look themselves in the mirror. To see not what others
have done to them but what they have done to others. That will be the sign
that we will be able to live together.

Albanians are closer to the truth, not because we are more human but because
we read both in Macedonian and in Albanian languages. That's the situation:
we are always closer to the truth. I'm glad that the Albanians did not
collectivise guilt but made a clear distinction: the conflict was the NLA
against the authorities, never the Albanians against the Macedonians. That
happened with the Macedonians . . .

Still, I never wanted to dance the Kozara dance with the Macedonians - many
Albanians don't like me, so I wouldn't expect an entire other nation to. But
understanding, yes, that I could expect.

As for language, I have proved my attitude towards my citizens by telling
stories in both languages. But I felt humiliated, provoked. I know
Macedonian language well, but when I say that I want to speak Albanian, it
is so I can organise my thoughts better. But then a colleague of mine called
to say he was invited to participate in a TV programme. He asked me to ask
them if he could use at least some phrases in Albanian. They reacted as if
the NLA had come to bomb the studio! That's why I stand by what I said:
until we start respecting each other in this state, I'm not going to use the
language anymore.

IWPR: What are the preconditions for peace and coexistence in Macedonia?

Geroski: I am convinced that when the constitutional changes are presented
in parliament, Albanians will vote for them and they will vote for the
Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia as a whole. Thus for the first
time after ten years they will approve the constitutional act of this state
and they will say: Yes, this is our country where we can live in peace and
tranquillity. Until this moment I have not heard such a confirmation, but I
hope I will. That's one of the basic preconditions.

Another is to show a little bit of sincerity in the period that follows, a
general human sincerity. Kim knows well that no mater what he says, this was
never Kosovo, that the Macedonians have never been Milosevic's Serbs. There
was a great difference between Macedonia and Milosevic's Yugoslavia. Even
after this war there will be a great difference between Macedonia and the
new democrats in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

The Macedonian as an ethnic stereotype differs significantly from the other
more powerful Balkan nations. And that's the fortunate thing in this region.
There won't be a tragedy if the minority fears as if it is threatened,
because all over the world minorities who feel threatened fight for their
rights. But it is a real tragedy if the majority feels that it is seriously
threatened. If we manage to avoid a real war, it will mean we managed to
avoid that feeling.

Nevertheless I still believe we are better than all those foreigners who
were trying to convince us that they are more civilised, that we are Balkan
people, killers and so on. Thank God in Macedonia we still haven't used
bombs to kill children, to destroy pubs and markets, as happens in Great
Britain.

This is where we search for the foundations for coexistence. How many
generations it will take to forget all that has happened, I don't know. The
future depends on that. It is possible that everything will end nicely - but
only if there is willingness on both sides, especially among those who drew
weapons first. That is the order. The one who first starts the killing needs
to forgive, but for that he first needs to ask for forgiveness.

Mehmeti: One of Branko's conditions is being fulfilled. The one who started
firing first has begun to disarm first. On that the international community
was correct.

Now, if I knew that with the Ohrid agreement Macedonians were even in the
smallest way damaged, I would publicly, as Kim Mehmeti, distance myself from
it. I don't want to accept anything that means taking something from
somebody else in order to give it to the other.

I know absolutely that peace in Macedonia depends on the mood of the ethnic
Macedonians. I don't think of them as less courageous people than mine. But
if the Macedonian state continues to incite a feeling among ethnic
Macedonians that they are humiliated and degraded, I don't see a way out. If
the media continues to nurse the sense that the Macedonians are losers and
that this is a capitulation, then in two or three years some ethnic
Macedonian "NLA" will emerge and the same problem will reappear, only
bigger. In this case, Albanians will be interested not in the maintenance of
this state but in its disappearance, as soon as possible.

This is the only danger for Macedonia. As long as the world exists, there
will be extreme Albanians. I have no illusions about this. But I also know
that in England there are at least 2,000 Englishmen who wake up every
morning with a prayer for war. But do you know what else is there in
England? There are state institutions that absorb all that as some kind of
trash thrown into the river and washed up on the banks.

In this ten-year long dispute we appeared as dilettantes because we have not
succeeded in dealing with some most elementary things. Branko is right:
compared to the Albanians who lived under Milosevic we lived in heaven! But
when he disappeared, the Albanians in Macedonia faced the fact that they
were almost the biggest losers. I'm trying to think as an ordinary Albanian.
What would his calculation be? He would take a pencil and start: why haven't
we got anything? Maybe because we did not fight, we weren't aggressive
enough.

Now for Albanians from Macedonia, Kosovo is the centre of our education and
culture, half of our families are there. Branko knows who educated us in
Yugoslavia. Why did Albanians from Macedonia flee to Kosovo and not to
Albania? Because at least 30 per cent of Albanian men from Macedonia have
wives from Kosovo. It is not just the ethnic feeling.

So there is nothing more irritating for us than when the president comes out
and says, We are against an independent Kosovo. Why are you against what you
are trying to provide to your own people, an independent state? I have never
understood this. Why would Macedonia be at risk?

The result is that Albanians in Macedonia feel like they are in some kind of
"waiting room" regarding Kosovo. Maybe I am stupid and naive - I'm a writer,
and I don't know how to think politically - but I think the very day Kosovo
is declared an independent state, the Albanians in Macedonia will know that
the end of the story has come. Yet as long as the dilemma remains open,
about how to divide Kosovo with the Serbs, Albanians in Macedonia will
wonder, What about us?

So in this context, I don't feel like a winner. A winner would have had
another goal - the destruction of Macedonia - and be able to say: we have
overcome the Macedonians. Never, it was not even at the back of my mind, did
I say that we are fighting against the Macedonians, but against the
institutions of this state, which is mine.

Geroski: I'm convinced that when the president reads your statement, he will
be more careful in what he says about an independent Kosovo. In the past
maybe Kim was not so dangerous, but now he is because, even if he is not the
winner, Boris Trajkovski is militarily defeated.

Kim: If he feels as if he is only the president of the ethnic Macedonians,
he should be.

Geroski: Even though many things have been destroyed, not so many have been
built. The reality is this: you and I cannot go together to Tetovo. This is
the situation that has been worrying us for some time. So I won't be happy
in my Skopje and you won't be happy in your Saraj [Kim's home district], but
both of us have a rather good standing in front of the people from Tetovo
and Kumanovo.

Anyway, I think that the Albanians already have an independent Kosovo, I
believe . . .

Mehmeti: So why are you against it since you know that they already have it?
That's even more irritating.

Geroski: I believe that you will have effective autonomy in a part of
Western Macedonia, because part of that territory will not be under the
control of the security forces. But I'm also certain that life for Albanians
in Macedonia in the coming period will be even worse than before. But you
won't be able to explain that to yourself, and even less to me.

My fault as a Macedonian is great because I haven't done enough though I did
a lot - you have to admit - to be constructive and courageous in increasing
the rights of minorities. But I believe that your fault is a little bit
bigger than mine because you didn't do enough to say: "Wait, there is always
another chance and we must not start killing people for this thing."

Mehmeti: My advantage is that I read Branko and I know everything he has
said, but he does not read me. I don't blame you; such are the
circumstances. But you don't know what I said at the beginning of this war
and I cannot elaborate it here for you because I don't have the texts with
me.

All wars are hard to explain. Did we really need a war? No. But what can we
take from it? When the war in Croatia began, it was impossible to find a
Croat and a Serb who would sit like this and talk. And in Macedonia you
could still find at least 100 people who, even though they don't look at
each other in the best way, would still talk.

If that substance is well kneaded, you can still have good bread. That's why
I keep saying: everything depends on the institutions, will they be able to
do the kneading? With the idiots [politicians] that we have right now not
only do I expect war but even worse things. Even now they will try to force
us, to tell us what kind of house to build, on the left or on the right. I'm
counting on a new generation that will be able to learn the lesson from this
tragedy.

IWPR: The last question is the most difficult - after all this, could you
say what you two do agree on?

Geroski: I am fascinated with Kim's optimism even though he claims that he
is a pessimist. He seems to me to be a fantastic optimist, so I will agree
to meet again for seminars where we can study more about brotherhood and
unity. I would like to agree with his optimism, but frankly at this point I
am not sure.

Mehmeti: I accept the role of optimist. Do you know where it comes from? I
know that all my Macedonian neighbours have been given Kalashnikovs. I know
that in Macedonia tens of thousands of Kalashnikovs have been handed out. I
know that, in some areas, Macedonians could have risen and made a mess. Even
to the Albanians I say that that is the proof that they do not want war with
us.

The proof that Albanians do not want war with the Macedonians is the
following: I live in an ethnically pure Albanian environment and not even
from the most illiterate Albanian - I claim this with all my honour - have I
heard that the time has come for this to be settled once and for all.
Everyone wonders how is it possible that the government hasn't come to its
senses, that some wise man has not emerged to sort it all out.

But still, the Albanians, not even the hardest rebels, have risen against
the Macedonians. As a journalist I had contacts with them, and they all
claimed that they couldn't bear the humiliations from the country's
institutions. If it was up to me I would go for civil disobedience --
everyday protests, boycotts, closed roads - but not the war. Certainly you
could have explained to the Albanians that all this could have been achieved
in three years.

But bear in mind that there are people whose level of patience is different
from Branko's and Kim's. Now I will tell you a secret: for the first time
after a long time I have crossed over to this side of Vardar. I am afraid of
the reservists, but not of Branko.

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