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<nettime> ivogram plus [x4 + ungerer]


"Ivo Skoric" <ivo@reporters.net>
     Re: [TW] tragedy in the USA
     RE: It was supposed to be such a beautiful day
     Atrocity in America
chris christiaansz ungerer <gris@Desk.nl>
     Re: <nettime> It's the law!-Or is it the money?
"Ivo Skoric" <ivo@reporters.net>
     Re: <nettime> It's the law!-Or is it the money?

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From: "Ivo Skoric" <ivo@reporters.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:04:55 -0400
Subject: Re: [TW] tragedy in the USA

If one wants to compare US actions against Iraq and Yugoslavia 
with this action of not-yet-known people against the US, it would be 
fair to take the following in the consideration:
- US military usually takes precautions to hit the objects with 
cruise missiles during the off-peak hours - like the TV bulilding in 
Serbia was not hit in the middle of the day when most of the 
employees would be inside - the unknown perpetrators chose to hit 
at 9 am at the onset of the workday
- using commercial airliner full of passengers as a weapon is an act 
of terrorism in itself, which can't be compared to using a cruise 
missile - because passengers in the airplane cannot be considered 
collateral damage, since they are not killed by chance
- two cruise missiles would never collapse two towers of WTC and 
cause tens of thousands of death and trillions of dollars of damage: 
in effect, wide fuselage airliner filled with fuel is a far more 
dangerous weapon than a cruise missile, and it could classify as a 
weapon of mass destruction: New York's financial district looks like 
it was hit by a small nuclear charge, the debris is still burning 48 
hours after the explosion and the stench of burned human flesh can 
be felt even in Harlem which is like 10 miles away from the 
epicenter.

ivo

date sent:      	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:12:19 EDT
send reply to:  	Tribunal Watch List <TWATCH-L@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
from:           	"Nalini Lasiewicz (twatch-l)" <LasiewiczN@AOL.COM>
subject:        	Re: [TW] tragedy in the USA
To:             	TWATCH-L@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU

In a message dated 9/12/2001 12:24:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mxm60@EMAIL.PSU.EDU writes:


> For years, the USA terrorizes
>

Let's look at the fact that all the above nations have held their citizens
captive by dictatorships for decades.  The USA stands for freedoms and a way
of life that  none of these regimes allow.  The US has responded time and
again to help the captive citizens of these strangled nations.  Our most
recent success was the liberation of Serbia.  Get the picture now?

Nalini

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From: "Ivo Skoric" <ivo@reporters.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:06:21 -0400
Subject: RE: It was supposed to be such a beautiful day

I agree with you Jonathan. Nothing, but more killing, would result of 
a simple retaliatory act. This time a more comprehensive and long 
term agenda is needed. The very reasons why anybody would 
engage in such act of suicidal attack should be erradicated. And 
ideological foundations can't be destroyed by cruise missiles. 
Those who harbor such ideas should not be killed - they should be 
proven wrong, so nobody ever listens to them again.

Two more things that puzzle me: why would those who feel 
oppressed by the U.S. politics, delight in this tragedy? No evil was 
ever destroyed by other evil. Evil can just replace evil: only good 
can destroy it. Osama bin Laden was an American sponsored man 
in Afghanistan during the Afghan war against Soviet Union. He is 
not a victim of 'evil' U.S. policy - he is its beneficiary. His turning 
against the hand that once fed him, does nothing more but to 
militarize U.S. society, giving more oportunity for U.S. to behave 
oppressive and arrogant to others. Palestinians are in fact 
victimized more by bin Laden than by Sharon. Who needs enemies 
with friends like Osama?

The other thing is purely technical: how was it possible for two 
large passenger jets to veer off course so dramatically (90 degrees) 
and fly in that new direction from Albany to New York (15? 20? 
minutes) without reaction from the ground control and the air force? 

ivo
from:           	"Knight, Jonathan" <Jonathan@JCWI.ORG.UK>
to:             	"'ivo@balkansnet.org'" <ivo@balkansnet.org>
subject:        	RE: It was supposed to be such a beautiful day
date sent:      	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:43:55 +0100

This tragedy was predicted by quite a few sources over the last few years -
including the BBC. The question was not if it would happen - but when. Most
analysts thought that a single plane would be hijacked and aimed at one of
the WTC towers. The lapse in security was quite appalling and heads will
undoubtedly roll. I suspect that quite a few Muslims are amongst the
causalities - a fact that should be taken into account amongst those who
lump all Muslims together - Most Islamic states don't like Bin Laden either,
which is why he is in Afghanistan, but there is no doubt that he does have
strong ties with Islamic groups throughout the Balkans, including the
Bosnian Muslim leadership and the KLA and its offshoots. The attempted
assassination of Ahmed Shah Masood this last weekend was probably connected.

It is understandable that people feel there is a sense of poetic justice,
not because they have anything against the people of America per se, but
because people with no experience of war or the aftermath of bombing
campaigns on civilians have blithely been bombing innocent people in the
name of justice and humanity with no thought for the suffering of the
normally innocent victims. The have supported terrorist groups in other
parts of the world while ignoring the ramifications. Terrorists,
particularly suicide bombers and kamikaze types have a certain philosophy
which is unique unto themselves. They have connections with each other -
e.g., the IRA have close ties with both the KLA and FARC as well as most
others. Their way of thinking and their fanaticism is not as straightforward
as people think.

There is no doubt that the evil people will be hunted down and punished.
Afghanistan and Iraq will undoubtedly be bombed, but unless active steps are
taken to rid the world of oppressive Governments - I don't mean by this
bombing innocent civilians and encouraging a siege mentality, but by
economic and other incentives - the current rulers will merely be replaced
by others equally as bad and the whole cycle will begin again.

JDK

-----Original Message-----
from: Ivo Skoric [mailto:ivo@REPORTERS.NET]
sent: 12 September 2001 18:22
to: TWATCH-L@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
subject: It was supposed to be such a beautiful day


Tribunal Watch archives since 1995
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/twatch-l.html
======================================

Yesterday, it was such a beautiful sunny September day in New
York city that the only cloud in the sky was the one raising from
the rubble of the World Trade Center.



>From Manhattan:
ivo skoric

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From: "Ivo Skoric" <ivo@reporters.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:05:43 -0400
Subject: Atrocity in America

Plenty of Americans opposed bombing of Iraq. Most of the 
Americans were suspicious about the need to bomb Yugoslavia. 
Essentially, living 11 years in this country, now, I came to the 
conclusion that if the real will of the people is let out, there would 
be no economic sanctions or bombing campaigns. Ordinary 
Americans are pacifist and isolationist. They believe in free trade, 
free speech and they are mostly curious when they see people in 
turbans. They do suffer of a hubris believing that their system is so 
much better than anybody's elses. But by large they do not believe 
into possibility of bombing democracy into other people's heads.

There is about 1% of people in the U.S. who are not merely 
Americans, but rather the members of the caste of globally rich 
and powerful. Most of what American politics and official state 
policies are about is designed to please and conform the interests 
of that moneyed group. They, as a group, have the undeniable 
interest to dominate the world affairs - which is often, unfortunately, 
done at expense of others. They, also, think that they are 
invulnerable and god-like. Hits on WTC and on Pentagon were 
obviously designed to prove them wrong.

Yet, it would be wrong to claim that all people who belong to the 
above-described group are evil or ill-meaning as individuals, 
although, perhaps, some of them are. This exactly is the problem 
with systems and networks - they are always more than a sum of 
the individuals that they are comprised of. Take Soviet Union as an 
example - Reagan called it Evil Empire - and not every member of 
Politbureau was evil, but the way how things were organized 
resulted in oppressing people and endangering the world. Take the 
terrorist network that is behind the destruction of World Trade 
Center as an example: there may be intelligent, well meaning, 
moral people among the terrorists, yet the resulting act endangers 
the safety and freedom of people around the world. 

This is what makes retaliatory strikes futile: destroying people and 
property means nothing to established systems and networks - kill 
Osama, there will be another Osama to replace him. Kill more 
Palestinians in Gaza, there will be more willing to die for the cause. 
Roman Emperors killed Christians routinely, and Christianity just 
grew stronger. The same analogy applies to that 1% America that 
"created such feelings of immense hatred against itself" - you can't 
destroy that America by killing its president or destroying its 
symbols of financial and/or military might. And by killing tens of 
thousands of innocent civilians - and 1500 people killed in the 
attack were reportedly Muslim, the rest were mostly support staff, 
that sees very little of the American wealth and power - you just 
make the worst instincts in America come more stronger to the 
surface. Now, local teenagers will chase people in turbans 
intending to hurt them. "What goes around, comes around" - works 
both ways, we should not forget.

"Policy of co-operation, friendship, fair trade and justice with all 
foreign countries", on the other hand, would not only erode the 
psychological foundation of the terrorist network, but would also 
make the life better for Americans, at least, 99% of them. The rest 
1% would soon find that the life is better for them too, without living 
in fear for themselves and their children. There is no money or 
worldly power that can substitute that calm of a simpler life. The 
'justice' - of course - means that those countries that so far 
provided safe havens to terrorist network, should give that up as a 
step to becoming a part of happier and more fair world for everyone, 
kind of like Serbia gave up Milosevic.

ivo

date sent:      	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:29:03 -0400
send reply to:  	Tribunal Watch List <TWATCH-L@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
from:           	Dwight Van Winkle <dwightvw@YAHOO.COM>
subject:        	Re: [TW] FW: Atrocity in America
to:             	TWATCH-L@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU

Tribunal Watch archives since 1995
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/twatch-l.html
======================================

"America is responsible for creating such feelings of immense hatred
against itself and would be better protected in the future if it only
pursued a policy of co-operation, friendship, fair trade and justice with
all foreign countries.   David Roberts"

I agree with this completely.  Which is not at all to say, and I doubt
Roberts is saying, that yesterday's attack was in any way justified.

A local columnist,Joel Connelly of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer wrote
today: "A rule in dealing with evil in the modern world is that those who
sow the wind must reap the whirlwind.  The evil people responsible for
yesterday's deeds must feel what Frederick the Great called 'the slashing
sword of retribution.'"

This kind of talk will lead to the deaths of thousands if not millions more
innocent, powerless people, including more, not less, attacks on
Americans.  By Connelly's morality and logic, I must believe that
yesterday's attack was justified retaliation, because I believe we as
Americans, knowing that our government was killing hundreds of thousands of
Iraqis yet doing nothing about it, are responsible for not trying to stop
those killings.

I don't accept Connelly's logic.  Yesterday's mass murder was evil.

Americans need to reflect, including self-reflection, on the causes of
yesterday's violence, rather than act with mindless vengeance.  But this is
not happening on a mass scale, nor is it likely to.  Instead the government
and corporate authoritarians in our country will use this opportunity to
increase the power of the military and intelligence agencies, and further
decrease our civil rights.

Dwight Van Winkle

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Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:32:33 +0200 (CEST)
From: chris christiaansz ungerer <gris@Desk.nl>
Subject: Re: <nettime> It's the law!-Or is it the money?

On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Ivo Skoric wrote:

>
> Bush daughters, caught twice for underaged drinking, got a clean
> record after doing 8 hours of community service, attending anti-
> drinking classes and paying $100 fine. $100 is nothing for them,
> but it might be a lot for somebody making $6 an hour...
>
> Again, this is just a silly, minor example of how the rule of law may
> convey injustice. It is this feeling of injustice and the feeling of
> helplessness to prevent that injustice, that breeds anger, rage and
> hate, and ultimately it breaks out in irreversible acts of horrific
> terrorism. It is true that Palestinians were and still are victims at
> the hands of the world. And the routes for them to obtain redress
> are clogged on purpose for a long time. So, for a quite a while they
> resort to terrorism, including suicidal terrorism.
>
<snip/>
>
> The war has never been that close to the U.S. since their
> Declaration of Independence.

Not quite true..

the white house, was burnt in 1814 by british troops -- yes folks, a
proper foreign invasion on u.s. soil -- in the war of 1812, and after some
repairs, painted white to cover up the scorch marks; hence: white house.

for the sake of convenience, let us not mention the war between the
northern states and the confederacy of 1861-5, a mayor war of the 19th
century, fought almost exclusively on american soil. excitingly, this war
brought us the first sinking of a ship by a submarine.

even more conveniently, i doubt if any charges will ever be laid in the
hague, relating to genocide and ethnic cleansing within the united states.
did someone mention native americans?

in short, dear ivo, the united states, like too many other places _has_
had its share of war since the declaration of independence (1776)
[incidentally issued _during_ the war of independence (april 1775
lexington - october 1781 yorktown].

the apparently forlorn hope for more acts of kindness and compassion and
fewer irreversible acts of desparation and revenge for all our futures
leads me to conclude that individual freedom will perhaps be even more
damaged than any building.

chris

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From: "Ivo Skoric" <ivo@reporters.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:50:24 -0400
Subject: Re: <nettime> It's the law!-Or is it the money?

This, of course, is not my problem, man. It is, however, true that 
despite numerous hints, the U.S. behaved as it cannot be hit and 
hurt by its enemies, trusting in its ability to strike from afar - with 
precision, yet unscathed - those who refuse to accept its ways. 
There is no secret in that many people, including American alllies, 
on the other sides of both oceans viewed that as arrogant stance - 
whatever you might chose to prefer to call it. Of course, the U.S. 
now paid heavy price for that, and this is probably the beginning of 
a new era - but we shall see will it be better, more humane, 
peaceful, just and free.
ivo

date sent:      	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:17:31 -0400
from:           	"Marko Maglich" <MMaglich@ny.whitecase.com>
to:             	FrodeauxB@aol.com, ivo@balkansnet.org, 
                    nettime-l@bbs.thing.net
subject:        	Re: <nettime> It's the law!-Or is it the money?

"American arrogance is 
most definitely humlbed." [sic]
What is your problem, man?

>>> ivo@reporters.net 09/11/01 12:33PM >>>
Bush daughters, caught twice for underaged drinking, got a clean 
record after doing 8 hours of community service, attending anti-
drinking classes and paying $100 fine. $100 is nothing for them, 
but it might be a lot for somebody making $6 an hour...

Again, this is just a silly, minor example of how the rule of law may 
convey injustice. It is this feeling of injustice and the feeling of 
helplessness to prevent that injustice, that breeds anger, rage and 
hate, and ultimately it breaks out in irreversible acts of horrific 
terrorism. It is true that Palestinians were and still are victims at 
the hands of the world. And the routes for them to obtain redress 
are clogged on purpose for a long time. So, for a quite a while they 
resort to terrorism, including suicidal terrorism.

Of course, nobody quite expected such a massive, well co-
ordinated and, unfortunately, highly succesfull attack on the land of 
the law, such as happened this morning. September 11th will 
perhaps be remembered in the world's history, because I can't 
imagine world ever be the same after today in regards to fighting 
terrorism. I am obviously afraid that citizens will have to put up with 
even more curtailing of their freedoms to assure their safety. 
Because - how could terrorists simultaneously hijack four large 
airliners at four different airports with such a tight security as it is in 
the U.S.? And the precision with which the planes hit the targets 
suggests use of suicide pilots.

I guess, Manhattanites may understand this morning how 
Sarajevans felt in 1994 - all bridges and tunnels to New York city 
are closed, the underground public transportation is shut down, my 
telephone gets dial-tone only sporadically, cell phone service went 
down with the two largest buildings in the city that collapsed after 
being hit by hijacked passenger airplanes. The bomb threats are 
still in the air. Hospitals in the city are overwhelmed with hundreds, 
thousands of injured. All airports in the U.S. are closed down. All 
trade exchanges are closed down. UN, World Bank, Capitol, White 
House, Treasury, State Department and Pentagon (that was also 
hit and badly damaged) are evacuated. American arrogance is 
most definitely humlbed.

The war has never been that close to the U.S. since their 
Declaration of Independence. And the Space Shield would do 
absolutely nothing to protect the U.S. from such an attack that 
came from inside and was executed by the tools of American 
corporate business, used against the symbols of American 
economic and military might. New York is never going to be the 
same - I am sending you the picture with the WTC twin towers - 
you try to imagine the picture without them - it is like Mostar 
without the Old Bridge. And, I guess, my mom who is coming to 
visit me in November, will not be able to get on top of them to get 
the view of the city.

Stay at home or at your place of business. If you are on the street - 
walk straight North. That's for now from mayor Giuliani.

ivo


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