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Re: <nettime> (fwd) Re: Deja move 'complete' (sequel to "huh?")
Ronda Hauben on Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:30:16 +0200 (CEST)


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Re: <nettime> (fwd) Re: Deja move 'complete' (sequel to "huh?")



oldcrackwhore <nospamNOnoSPAM {AT} pbl.cx.invalid> wrote:
oh {AT} yeah.com (mary sunshine) wrote:

>>So essentially the usenet archive that used to be part of the
>>internet is now gone.

>well, basically, yes, at least temporarily. Usenet archiving has
>always been extremely haphazard.  The net as a whole was just
>lucky to have Deja[news] around to archive it.  They've chosen
>(made a business decision) to focus on the product / shopping
>stuff rather than Usenet.  Time will tell whether that was the
>right business decisison.  The Gods of the Internet hath not
>decreed that Deja be the one and true repository of Usenet now
>and forever, especially as a free service.  Usenet's been around
>a LOT longer than Deja, and selected archives have managed to
>survive from the pre-Dejanews era.  The key word there is
>'selected': ie, some human decided that some posts were worthy of
>being kept around more than a few days, and saved them.   Of
>course, now the vast majority of usenet (in terms of sheer byte
>size) is not worth keeping around at all.

Another example of how "business" decisions are not public 
decisions and the fact that governments like the US are pouring
money into supporting "businesses" in their use of the Internet
leaves the public and the technical and scientific community
with nothing in the end.

The Internet cannot and won't be developed by commercial entities.

They will find ways to "make" money, but they won't develop or
contribute to the Internet's development.

>>I think this is deliberate.

>Deliberate how?  Of course it was deliberate, they didn't
>"accidentally" lose the old archive servers.  They probably
>decided that it was too expensive or not worth worrying about to
>move them to their new facility.  After all, 4-5 years of usenet
>archives must take up a lot of disk space!

Neither did they, to my knowledge, post on Usenet that they would
support others taking over the archives.

Instead the archives just disappears.


>>Now the only publically accessible non-commercially driven
>>database of scientific information and human experience has 
>>been destroyed.

>It hasn't been destroyed.  A little birdie on the inside told me
>that the old servers are just sitting there unused (they haven't
>been moved into the new facility.)  there are individuals at deja
>who feel that usenet is an important and neglected area of the
>site, and who would love to bring the old articles back online.
>Unfortunately, the company's management does NOT share those
>views; the focus is on the product information / pricing engine
>and related services. 

But the archives are a public resource. Is there some way a library
or academic institution can be found to provide a home for 
the archives and to make them available?

Is anyone trying to find such a home for them?

Is there any way the people who do care about them who work at
Deja can be helpful in getting the archives saved and back on
line somewhere?


>And you're right, Jane Q. Usenet Reader
>isn't very important overall to the company -- they are looking
>to make the real money in the so-called 'vertical market' --
>focusing in on specific businesses or other groups that need fast
>concise product buying information.  The powers that be have
>promised to put the old articles back online 'eventually,'
>whenever that may be.

Interesting that all businesses like Deja seem to care about are
making money. There isn't any support for the development of the 
Internet or of Usenet.

Don't they realize that if they strip mine Usenet, there won't be
any Usenet to make money from?

I guess to those who feel they can benefit from stripmining,
there aren't any set of arguments that would be helpful.

That is the quick sand that the Internet bubble is sitting
on isn't it.

The get-rich-quick schemers are out to make their money, 
and the health and well being of the Internet is irrelevant to them.


>Usenet as we know it will continue to go on.  As someone else
>said, if you are so keen on usenet archives, why don't you set up
>a few hundred gigabytes of disk space on some servers hanging off
>a T3 and let everyone access it for free. Oh, that's right, it
>costs a lot of money.

If folks post widely asking on Usenet if there is anyone who can do
this, they may find someone who has access to a way to 
store and maintain the archives. 

Also there is the computer museum in California that could be
contacted.


>>I am grief stricken.

>Yeah, an convenient service (search really old archives) is lost,
>and Deja does have (many) other problems besides losing the old
>archives, but let's not be too dramatic here.  Most of the good
>stuff is around in other forms on the web if you know where to
>look.

What good stuff is around on the web? The Deja archives is different
from someone saving a few posts.


><http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=635374487>

>   Re: Deja move 'complete' (sequel to "huh?")
>   Author:   oldcrackwhore <nospamNOnoSPAM {AT} pbl.cx.invalid>
>   Date:     2000/06/16
>   Forum:    alt.fan.dejanews

Ronda
ronda {AT} ais.org
ronda {AT} panix.com

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