[Nettime-bold] Re: Re

[nettime-l@bbs.thing.net]

You wrote:

>
>Table of Contents:
>
>   RE:  commentary on Unsubscribe text                                             
>     "anna balint" <epistolaris@freemail.hu>                                         
>
>   Re: <nettime> txt from C-front: Unsubscribe                                     
>     "Ruine der Kuenste Berlin" <ruine-kuenste.berlin@snafu.de>                      
>
>   Re: Syndicate: FW:  commentary on Unsubscribe text                              
>     "ana peraica" <ana.peraica@st.tel.hr>                                           
>
>   Re: <nettime> txt from C-front: Unsubscribe (bibliographical note)              
>     "ana peraica" <ana.peraica@st.tel.hr>                                           
>
>   Re: <nettime> txt from C-front: Unsubscribe (bibliographical note)              
>     "Ruine der Kuenste Berlin" <ruine-kuenste.berlin@snafu.de>                      
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:35:24 +0200
>From: "anna balint" <epistolaris@freemail.hu>
>Subject: RE:  commentary on Unsubscribe text
>
>'Il n'ya plus de centre de l'art.Chaque artiste doit se considérer comme
>faisant partie d'un réseau' Robert Filliou - Eternal Network
>
>Dear Ana, folks, auto replyer,
>
>One of the fantastic aspects of the net is the immediate accesibility to
>the texts, sources, works, people. One minute search on the web is enough
>to acknowledge the context of a text, and find out that the Eternal
>Network text was published. One more minute is enough to overcome the
>impression that mail art circles were ever closed. For people with
>theoretical interest in mailing lists, networks, netart - the net will
>probably be a minimum reference. Unfortunately I did not find your text in
>the nettime archives, as it is very raw and inefficiently organised.
>Contrary to such net archives, mail art archives already developed
>archiving, filtering strategies, and methods for organise information. Art
>and media concerned BBSs, mailing lists owe a lot to the correspondence
>networks and movements, even the mailing list technique was developed in
>mail art circles, it goes back to the newsletter of Dick Higgins and the
>New York Correspondence School of Ray Johnson. Besides technical aspects,
>on the content level even nettime reproduced and interfered with many of
>the mail art and fluxus phenomena - intermedia, collaborative work, the
>multiples, the anticopyright movement, much of the netart, media art,
>visual poetry, copy art, censorship questions, radio art, sound poetry,
>fanzines, video art, computer art, alternative music, alternative
>galleries, museums, comes from the correspondence art and fluxus. When
>about bulky correspondence art materials, many theories and concepts cover
>them very well, mail art theories in the first place, but the library of
>Borges as well, some notions of Flusser, the palimpsest (of Hakim Bay as
>well), heteroglossic forms of Michael Bakhtin - his theory of reverse
>culture covers your original text as well - hypertext, and so on. When
>about legacy of ideas, would it be a coincidence that one of the
>moderators of this list comes form the American Fluxus circles, the other
>from the Advancement for the Illegal Knowledge group, the third close to
>the Marshall MacLuhan heritage - connected with Fluxus, as Marshall
>MacLuhan was first published by Something Else Press? The concepts,
>theories, practices and attitudes of the correspondence art infiltrated
>not only mailing lists, but contemporary art practices - the call for
>artworks and papers for instance, its morality, its rules. The idea, the
>illegal knowledge which circulated through postal network on a global
>level became much more known and legitimate on a larger scale due to the
>net.  Though many things originating in the correspondence art became more
>visible, some still wait to be discovered. Topics, methods as well. For
>instance correspondence artists adored trash, crab and junk, they very
>much explored and recycled it. When about empty places in mailing lists,
>the squatters logic works, what's wrong in that? That logic brought up
>alternative spaces, alternative radios, alternative tv's, alternative art,
>alternative idea.  Nokia is a spammer? Great!  We found out! The Dalai
>Lama is spamming? Good that somebody reminds me the question of who the
>Dalai Lama is! Integer was banned from the syndicate, nettime, rhizome and
>infowar list at the same time? First of all we all learn that these lists
>were connected, their moderators control (too much) and they lack humour.
>Her messages are overwhelming? Did we know before that messages can mix
>private and public, did we know so much about private and public
>feed-back, did we question content, language, filtering before? Didn't we
>learn something about hidden and visible aspects of the email? Did some
>mailing lists die out? Great! New ones come, and we will find out what is
>eternal. There is already much said about spatiality of the net, many
>people explore utopia and atopia, virtual space, spatiality in general.
>Much less is discussed the notion of temporality, though some artists,
>theoreticians already struggle with this concept. At this moment my
>personal time perceiving is very much determined by the commercial
>s/censors of net-works, as the Hungarian Telecomunication Company lets me
>to work in the night with less costs.  Robert Filliou did not wait the
>raise of the internet to formulate his theories, maybe we still need time,
>to properly understand his notion of time with the help of the new medium.
>Eternity is a religious notion? Which concept is not? bests regards, Anna
>Balint
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:29:30 +0200
>From: "Ruine der Kuenste Berlin" <ruine-kuenste.berlin@snafu.de>
>Subject: Re: <nettime> txt from C-front: Unsubscribe
>
>Dear Ana Peraica,
>
>I hesitate to write this in a way, but on the other hand, maybe it helps
>you. If one pans through your Unsubscribe-text, one can not avoid to
>notice a certain number of words of hate and anger and so forth. Please do
>not light heartedly enclose people, who spent their life with ideas and
>beliefs, and over all materialised works, you might not agree to.I mean
>leave the Dalai Lama and Robert Filliou out of this first of all. It is so
>easy to play with words and so hard to live them. They both did or do.
>Robert, a friend of mine for 25 years (he exhibited his last work before
>his death in 1988 in our place http://home.snafu.de/ruine-kuenste.berlin),
>and the Tibetans, for which I am working since 1980
>http://home.snafu.de/ruine-kuenste.berlin/members.htm , they have a
>complete different idea of networks on this planet, which cannot be mixed
>up with 'your' materialistic one. And it is no argument to disqualify
>theirs with a disbelief in the eternal in general, as you propose. Roberts
>idea of the Eternal Network is so much wider and philosophical than any
>other existing or disappearing network in the net (and other media!) and
>so full of humour, that your feelings of a frightening undeliberately
>beeing connected situation are just a surfacial misunderstanding. Read
>again and not only this text. I invited Robert for example to exhibit his
>Research of the Origine here in Berlin in 1974, there is a very good
>´catalogue on it published in Düsseldorf and Berlin (Aktionen der
>Avanatgarde, ADA, Akademie der Künste Berlin) that year. Read, if you are
>interested my text on Roberts (Tibetan buddhist) philosophy, which can be
>clearly seen and proven in his works by the one, who know buddhism. (Wolf
>Kahlen: Une chose en t´e`te ou piece qui s'effilochent. A propos de
>EIND.UN.ONE.... du point de vue bouddhiste de Robert Filliou, in: Robert
>Filliou, poet, Galerie der Stadt Remscheid 1997).
>
> It is the same background as Brancusis, who believed all his life, he was
>a reincarnation of Milarepa. Anyway, to make it short. Your connotations
>and associations regarding Filliou's network-idea have absolutely nothing
>in common with your main issue, the other kind of networking. And by the
>way: I had a strange feeling, as if your sewer story was (perfectly
>fitting but) invented, it fits more to the mood of the rest of your
>words...or am I mistaken? With good wishes Wolf Kahlen
>
>www.wolf-kahlen.de
>www.tu-berlin.de/~arch_net_art
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:50:04 +0200
>From: "ana peraica" <ana.peraica@st.tel.hr>
>Subject: Re: Syndicate: FW:  commentary on Unsubscribe text
>
>HI Anna, and others...
>
>I am receiving so much of e-mail reactions.... Unfortunately interesting
>writings arrive to my own address, not to lists, and seems the problems of
>censorship, moderation et. al. are very hot, at least on two lists
>(Syndicate and Nettime the first). Censorship seems to still be the topic
>people prefer to discuss in private... I would try to write the reply and
>ideas I have got in one single e-mail as replying this would take some
>time... (of summer).
>
>For myself, though I didn't want to get involved in the historical
>developement of networking, the ideas of creators etc. as my interest was
>not at all to point on its artistic or others rhoutes, but to go a step
>further, which I found interesting - critique of the network, fallen
>promises and end of the hype. For the de/scralisation of it, because of
>using only a single way of interpretation (which I tried to avoid more
>literally by comparing networks of the veneral diseases, urbanistic ones
>et. al) many were not ready.
>
>But in this reply of Anna I found several topics that were of my interest;
>bulk e-mail and (self - if taken as an independent body) organization.
>Maybe this discussion is now too particular (located) for the theory, but
>nevertheless...
>
>Anna wrote:
>> Integer was banned from the syndicate, nettime, rhizome and infowar list
>at the same time?
>
>As far as I know Syndicate is unmoderated; of course, question is how this
>democracy of all-can-post becomes at one point the tiranny of a single
>person, and suffers from the reversal of the quality. Two days ago I got
>the reply of Andreas as my e-mails were not getting through; and I made a
>joke on
>
>>> either seems someone unsubscribed me in real, or there is a censorship
>on the Syndicate, but my e-mails (UN-art and >> Unsubscribe texts) are not
>passing to the list since yesterday. I checked the archive, and they are
>not there too. And I was >> thinking also how to send something entitled
>Unsubscribe in the body of message, so I put the starr * before the title,
>>> hoping Majordomo will not recognize as a command. But seems a human
>agent did... They like to be commanded probably?
>
>Andreas wrote;
>> the syndicate has no moderation but admins who help people who are too
>lazy  to adjust to the technical rules of
>> majordomo to get their stuff on the list.
>
>Michael Benson wrote:
>
>> Maybe, as with nettime, we can make two  lists -- one featuring 8/10ths
>posts by whatshername and one without. That
>> way people don't have to go to the trouble of filtering out the crap, they
>can just freely choose, and meanwhile accusations > of censorship won't have
>to be slung so freely around.
>
>Anna wrote:
>> First of all we all learn that these  lists were connected. Their
>moderators control (too much) and they lack humour - or the > time did not
>come when people accept no censorship, no jury rules.
>
>Now, I am again not sure on this point; whether it means connections of
>moderators (and then a kind of conspiracy) or the connection of subscribers
>/ subscriptions, and then merging of networks... For the first I think it is
>totally the opposite, but the second one is the truth.
>
>Anna wrote:
>> Didn't we| learn something about hidden and visible aspects of the email?
>Did some mailing lists die out? Finally!
>
>That is what i think too.
>
>*******************************
>(end that falls out the discussion)
>
>> Eternity is a religious notion? Which concept is not?
>
>I would rather say which one is not political; maybe it is a matter of
>interpretation, so I don't quite consume religion, or its notions.
>
>Note; Nokia telephones and Dalai Lama on Life are spams... First one is a
>commercial spam, and the second a spiritual one (chain letter that ends up
>with a course).
>
>best
>Ana
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 17:31:35 +0200
>From: "ana peraica" <ana.peraica@st.tel.hr>
>Subject: Re: <nettime> txt from C-front: Unsubscribe (bibliographical note) 
>
>Dear Wolf and others,
>
>| I mean leave the Dalai  Lama
>
>so, I am sending spam bibliography, I thought 'Dalai Lama on life' was
>known in net circles... But there are always people that are black holes
>in the network. So Wolf - delete message / otherwise bad luck or try to
>find the list with subscribers as on the Nettime, and you are happy till
>the end of the life : )
>
>Others, sorry for spamming!
>
>ana
>
>
> In need of some improvements in your life? If so read on....
>
>  A Message from the Dalai Lama
>  Just a short Buddhist outlook on life. Do not keep this message. The
>  mantra must leave your hands within 96 hours. You will get a very
>  pleasant surprise. This is true, even if you are not superstitious.
>
> Take into account that great love and great achievements involve
>      great risk.
>
>  When you lose don't lose the lesson.
>
>Follow the three R's: Respect for self, Respect for others and
>      Responsibility for all your actions.
>
>Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a wonderful
>      stroke of luck.
>
>Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
>
>Don't let a little dispute injure a great friendship.
>
>When you realize you've made a mistake, take immediate steps to
>      correct it.
>
>Spend some time alone every day.
>
>Open your arms to change, but don't let go of your values.
>
>Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer.
>
>Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think
>      back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.
>
>A loving atmosphere in your home is the foundation for your life.
>
>In disagreements with loved ones, deal only with the current
>      situation. Don't bring up the past.
>
>Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality.
>
>Be gentle with the earth.
>
>Once a year, go someplace you've never been before.
>
>Remember that the best relationship is one in which your love for
>      each other exceeds your need for each other.
>
>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.
>
>Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon.
>
>
>  FORWARD THIS MANTRA E-MAIL TO AT LEAST 5 PEOPLE AND YOUR LIFE WILL
>IMPROVE.
>
>  0-4 people: Your life will improve slightly.
>  5-9 people: Your life will improve to your liking.
>  9-14 people: You will have at least 5 surprises in the next 3 weeks.
>  15 people and above: Your life will improve drastically and everything
>      you ever dreamed of will begin to take shape.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 18:15:39 +0200
>From: "Ruine der Kuenste Berlin" <ruine-kuenste.berlin@snafu.de>
>Subject: Re: <nettime> txt from C-front: Unsubscribe (bibliographical note) 
>
>
>Dear Ana,
>
>please make the source of the mentioned Dalai Lama 'chain letter' public,
>of course I received such a letter by several people, I just smiled about
>the chain method, text itself is good, but to me it does not fit into His
>Holiness' way of teaching to give promises like the Popes of Rome at
>Luther times, so please open your archive and I am the first to start
>tracing the spource and finding out myself and if necessary to apologize.I
>must not tell you how easy it is to forge messages in the net, right? By
>the way, was it really you writing the last response?
>
>Good wishes Wolf
>
>- -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>Von: "ana peraica" <ana.peraica@st.tel.hr>
>An: "Ruine der Kuenste Berlin" <ruine-kuenste.berlin@snafu.de>
>Cc: "Nettime" <nettime-l@bbs.thing.net>
>Gesendet: Samstag, 23. Juni 2001 17:31
>Betreff: Re: <nettime> txt from C-front: Unsubscribe (bibliographical note)
>
>
>> Dear Wolf and others,
>>
>> | I mean leave the Dalai  Lama
>>
>> so, I am sending spam bibliography, I thought 'Dalai Lama on life' was
>known
>> in net circles
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>
>
>
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